The Pyramid Replacement Poll

[asleepathewheel]

What should we go for now that we can't get the pyramids?

Edit by Nathan: If you think you might be persuaded to change your mind, you might want to wait a few hours to cast your vote.

[DeepO]

Just to point out that, in case we really need it, we can also delay the build for eg the Sistine by switching to Sun Tsu now, and keeping our workers unhappy (Hurricane in disorder) for as long as it takes to get theo. Leo is theoretically also possible, in reality it would mean we need to keep Hurricane into disorder for 5-10 turns, at the same time damaging production in the rest of our high pop cities.

As to my vote: for the moment no clear choice... both Sun Tzu and the lighthouse are ok. The library is a total waste, the great wall is laughable (no walls yet), and Collosus, although nice in itself, is wasting too many shields. In case we don't need the lighthouse, but need units from next turn onwards, that would be okay as well. I'll abstain for now, but after some more discussion, tomorrow I'll vote.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

There is no way we should wait for Sun Tzu's. We need Hurricane building units now.

Lighthouse is the most useful one of what's left.

I wouldn't mind the GrLib, but as some others have said, that may just make us a bigger target for the other civs.

[asleepathewheel]

I vote lighthouse

I had a great post on the lighthouse, but my hit the backbutton on my intellimouse

Anyway, my main reason is the edge it would give us in the Vox war. It would shave a turn moving from Hurricane to the iron deposit and from monsoon to elipolis. would save more turns from there to the north.

and it will last for quite some time

and the trade benefits, we can forge better relationships with GoW and others, trading iron and luxuries

ability to strike at Bob: they are going to war, probably quite soon after the discovery of chivalry. If the vox war is in the mopping up stage by then (granted they might be mopping us up then) then we might want to choose sides, this would aid the transit times considerably. need fewer galleys to ship over reserves.

[asleepathewheel]

ridiculous alternative:

trade for monarchy from RP (or whoever else has it) and build the gardens.

[nbarclay]

By my count, the Great Lighthouse should save two turns striking at Vox's iron supply [Edit: assuming we can get pikes ready in time]. I'm leaning very strongly toward the Lighthouse, but I won't cast my vote yet.

[FrustratedPoet]

Lighthouse please.

[nbarclay]

I did some more analysis, and it looks like the Lighthouse would only save one turn if we attack from the east due to not having a pair of pikes ready in time. If we attack from the west, things are a lot more fluid since we could attack earlier if Vox isn't pressing us very hard and we dare to release spear-upgraded pikes for the operation with the idea of replacing them by the time we might need them, or we could delay the iron raid if Vox sends a huge stack and we want extra pikes to help defend against it.

Even so, I still like the Lighthouse - see my "Operation End Around" thread for a couple of thoughts on how we might use it in the war against Vox.

[Theseus]

I'm still for Sun Tzu... a longer-term perspective perhaps, but it delivers too much practical and economic value to ignore.

[DeepO]

The only reason why I would favor the lighthouse over Sun Tzu is because it makes Hurricane available for unit building immediately. I don't find the new barracks in all cities that important, but the free gpt for the barracks already built is quite big, and in that respect better then the Collosus.

Maybe we don't need the extra troops, it's strange to see most supporters for Sun Tzu in the Spartan academy, where I would suspect most of them would go for more troops over a longer wonder build. If defendability of our empire isn't at stake, I would certainly go for Sun Tzu.

DeepO

[Arrian]

I don't think that the Great Library is a waste, even though we are unlikely to get a bunch of techs out of it.

I don't see the power of the Lighthouse... we have contact with everyone already.

Sun Tzu is ok, but NYE is correct that we need Hurricane pumping units ASAP.

I'm a big fan of the Colossus, but not when we'd lose ~200 shields.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Sun Tzu.

Pardon being blunt, but the only "argument" I've heard for getting Hurricane producing military units ASAP is nye's fear of Vox's strength. I have not been paying too close attention here, but I'm really doubtful Vox can put more than a 1 city dent in our empire, regardless of Hurricane's contribution. Vox is producing at least 1.5 times fewer units that we are (probably closer to 2.0) times fewer). I really understand that we've got a lot to lose and that fearing for the worst is a natural (and useful) emotion, but I believe reason wins over here.

Re: Pyramids (I missed the whole discussion). I'm also happy about the way things turned out. It makes sense for Lego to build the Pyramids, since they have a lot of Jungle. This helps us diplomatically in the short term since we're not obviously the "big dog", who is taking out another civ and building the best Wonders all at the same time.

We need to look 100 turns down the road. Someone recently posted that we would have been "too powerful" had we built the Pyramids, triggered our GA, then eliminated Vox. This statement would certainly have been true in that time frame. But look at all that land on Bob! We cannot hope to compete with that in the long-term unless we 1) get off our average-sized island, or 2) go for the Diplomatic (or Cultural?) victory.

Given this, we need to take steps to ensure that no one civ gets a significant advantage on Bob. We will be utterly impotent to stop a Bobian civ that takes control of Bob with a Sun Tzu (maybe even coupled with Leonardo's) enabled Knight and/or Cavalry campaign.

In my mind, it has never made more sense to get Sun Tzu from a pure denial standpoint as in this situation.

Other thoughts:

1. Great Lighthouse: We would be basically be using all those accumulated Shields for a shot at taking out Vox's Iron. Not only is this near-sighted, but I think we can expect Vox to have better defenses of their critical Resource than we've been giving them credit for.

2. Colossus: We're going to lose it if we do not go for it right now (you can bet some other civ has a Wonder prebuild). Still, I do not think the Colossus is worth such a big Shield loss.

3. Great Wall: If only we were using the AU mod (where the Great Wall provides Walls in all cities). Come to think of it, not even then.

4. Great Library: I do not think we would be a military target if we got this one, but we would definitely be a diplomatic target. It would complicate things too much for too little a gain.



Dominae

[nbarclay]

The Great Lighthouse is useful both against Vox and if we need to invade Bob somewhere other than in the far north before Magnetism. Yes, once we have Astronomy, we could invade without it, but our rate of delivering reinforcements would be a lot lower. So the Great Lighthouse gives us more flexibility to do something about an emerging Bobian monster.

And if we can turn the tide in the war with Vox quickly, we can get back to building wonders sooner. That gives us a significantly better shot at Leonardo's (which I regard as the most important one for us to get) and maybe Sistine or Sun Tsu's as well.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Dominae
Pardon being blunt, but the only "argument" I've heard for getting Hurricane producing military units ASAP is nye's fear of Vox's strength. I have not been paying too close attention here, but I'm really doubtful Vox can put more than a 1 city dent in our empire, regardless of Hurricane's contribution. Vox is producing at least 1.5 times fewer units that we are (probably closer to 2.0) times fewer). I really understand that we've got a lot to lose and that fearing for the worst is a natural (and useful) emotion, but I believe reason wins over here.

Not to mention that the sooner we finish the war, the sooner our entire empire returns to development.

2 turns, 5 turns, 10 turns of production for our entire empire. How much is that?

[Arrian]

Dominae,

One question: you say you think that we would lose the Colossus. Why? What other civ has a high production coastal city?

So, in my mind, the choices are these:

G. Library
G. Lighthouse
Sun Tzu

On the one hand, I am a little worried about the war, and therefore would like to pump out units asap. On the other, the Library - while it would, in fact, be of some use - does not have long (or even medium) term value.

The Lighthouse... well, I guess I see your points, Nathan, but I don't think it's worth it. I'd still rather have Sun Tzu or the Library.

Sun Tzu requires 7 turns, right? Could we get Theology in 7 turns without hampering our ability to upgrade units? Just curious.

-Arrian