Thoughts Spartan

[Theseus]

"WAR!! (duh duh) What is it good for?

Absolutely noth... Absolutely clearing our continent of the Voxian scum!!

Say it again, now:

WAR!!"

[The above song lyrics contain no derision, arrogance, or unprofessional sentiment... just good ol' fashioned WARMONGERING!!]

Here is my thinking:

The approach to Dissidentville is highly disadvantageous to fastmovers, in that no matter how we attack, there will be an opportunity for an Immortal preemptive counter-attack. Thus, I would certainly prefer Swordsmen (D2) across the mountains (an excellent path would be 88 from Arashi).

Additionally, the iron colony is on a mountain, so, assuming at some point we want to attack it (maybe not), and assuming fortified Spearmen or Immortals, a tough proposition for Horsemen / WCs.

Lastly, I worry about towns built on hills up north, and would want the extra strength of a 3 attack.

Sooo...

I'd like to see a stack of, say, 2 vet and 4 reg Swords and 2 Spears take out D-ville, continuing on to the north 888 to where the road branches.

If we have the capacity, it might be interesting to also present 2 or so WCs 9 from D-ville... if one survived, it could pillage the road to the colony one to two turns earlier (certainly creating a dilemna for Vox).

While this is happening, a few reg Swords and the WCs stay back on defensive, with strong Spearmen encampments at key defensive points, especially 9 from Arashi, and of course in the forward towns, in order to create killzones. It'll be interesting to see what Vox does with any units protecting the colony.

I do NOT, btw, want to pillage the road branch tile, but rather the tile to its east (8899 from D-ville).

Concurrently pump out WCs / Horsemen, and sweep north to the jungle road branch tile... make this our forward encampment, heal up, and destroy any Immortals foolish enough to venture south. When ready, deliver the coup-de-grace, using the oh-so-convenient road to attack 778 over the hills.

BTW, this would mean that we do not have to build the NW-most town next to the iron, but instead 777 from Arashi.

WAR!!

[DeepO]

So... you think Vox is not going to be of any help against Bob, and thus need to be dealt with asap? I'm not saying I don't agree, but I'm absolutely not sure on that.

One thing's for sure: if Vox does not give us a reason to keep them around now that we will get MT, they would be better gone.

DeepO

[Theseus]

Originally posted by DeepO


So... you think Vox is not going to be of any help against Bob, and thus need to be dealt with asap? I'm not saying I don't agree, but I'm absolutely not sure on that.

One thing's for sure: if Vox does not give us a reason to keep them around now that we will get MT, they would be better gone.

DeepO

Sure, they can do the famous Settler Flanking Maneuver, last attempted by Joe Comicus of the Blitheringians...

Never heard of Joe Comicus?

Never heard of the Blitheringians?

Hmmm...






J/K

[DeepO]

that's not what I meant, if they settle a city, they will divert attention to whatever we could do at the same time on bob... no matter if they will lose it again in 3 turns, at least Bobian forces would be drawn to Vox, instead of to us

DeepO

[Theseus]

So far away...

[asleepathewheel]

so apparently Vox is going to invade Bob for the second time? I hope they have one ally over there at least, as otherwise they will get slaughtered by all three. Maybe GoW is only temporarily holding onto East Wittlich in order to cool the situation whilst preparing for a two front attack on ND?

What about a marine action to take Elipolis on the second turn of the war. That way we wouldn't need to cut the road. I think it would be better to take the isthmus early, else it would be difficult to take. We could, I think, hide a couple galleys on the eastern side of the island which could insert units one square north of Elipolis, thus isolating their entire southern territory.

I would love to see insertions in the north, would cause much chaos, but I think we need more intel on their territory. Anyway we could tell them we are reconning Bob, but travelling along Vox coast?

[Shiber]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I would love to see insertions in the north, would cause much chaos, but I think we need more intel on their territory. Anyway we could tell them we are reconning Bob, but travelling along Vox coast?

I'd rather not lie to them straight in the face. Let's not tell them what the mission of our galleys is; if they don't ask - good, whereas if they do, we don't have to respond immediately and Vox would most likely not suspect us, thinking that we are merely on our way to reconning Bob... by the time they find out, a diplomatic message will not be necessary.

Btw, do you think it will be wise to open a thread in the public forum as soon as Vox gets the turn in which they can see us landing? It certainly won't be pretty, but it's better than letting Vox open their own "We were attacked by treacherous GS! Let them burn!!" thread.

[DeepO]

Shiber, I'm not sure how we would need to handle it, but in any declaration of war, we should prepare for a propaganda war on the public forum. Screenshots, perhaps, but at least a thread in which we explain our reasons (or whatever can serve as an excuse of a reason).

However, if we want to play honorably, we will declare war before actually moving a unit into their territory. I'm thinking of even needing to disband Grog, or at least not move him the first turn, because otherwise it may be interpreted as a cheap trick, and used against us.

Actually, that might be a good way to start a 'we declared war to the Voxians' thread: show two screenies of Grog, first sitting on his mountain inbetween Voxian cities, next one where he dies by suicide, in the name of honor. I'm certain FP or anyone else with a good writer's pen could come up with a nice story on how it was necessary to sacrifice our first born (even before the advent of tanks). Nobody wanted to do it, but we were forced, and thus our first act of war would be to kill our own if we wanted to keep our honor clean. Grog, the Kamikaze warrior.

DeepO

[zeit]

Oh boy- i just love war plan threads...

I trust the tacticians to make battle plans- and economists to provide the support, the Diplo school will have to deal with propaganda though, and this is part of the warplans as well:

Any thoughts on our casus belli?
A Voxian invasion to Bob might be part of one- the instable nature of Vox, and the dangers of a counter-offensive into our territory made us decide it's our best course of action...
Vox's lack of cooperation in regard to our technology trading relations (about to happen, probably) and no consultation whatsoever on matters that endanger the continent safety- like the handling of the Luxian affair, and their repeated attempts at Bob, was more than a sign- it won't be too long until the Voxian could have turned their resetless Immortals at our direction...

Any further posturing of honor and dignity is also important, but we need some serious arguments as well, although i don't think our image would be hurt that bad- they're Vox- the Bobians don't really like them, GoW really suffered in their attempts to negotiate with them, so why would probably get some credit from them. Lego, OTOH, might prove a problem, if Vox manages to represent this as a backstab.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
Lego, OTOH, might prove a problem, if Vox manages to represent this as a backstab.

Good thinking. Perhaps we can immune them from Vox's counter-propaganda by giving them an early warning; they'd certainly appreciate the gesture, and might see Vox's attacks on our integrity, which are sure to come following the declaration of war, in a different light.

Edit: it could also be worth mentioning that Vox always got the best deals from us, yet they refused to cooperate.

[DeepO]

Certainly we need to get Lego on our side before starting a war, but in case of Vox, this might not be such a problem. They know already they're annoying to us, while most of the Bobians outright hate them. Further, their comments on Vox going for Bob again as "why do they keep trying?" don't show much sympathy for them either...

Casus Belli: why not be blunt about it, and say it was the most likely target.
- 1st reason: we're cramped for space. We have to expand somewhere, so if Bob want us to expand onto Bob instead of taking our whole continent, they should say so. Instead, we chose the territory closest to us, and most easily defendable after the war

- 2nd reason: Vox are unstable, and thus a risk for our safety. The last incursions on Bob were also bad for our diplomatic standing with the rest of the world, and if Bob would have invaded Vox, we would have one more enemy presence to deal with.

- 3rd reason: any incursion we might think of, any reason like 'we like you guys, we thought we could help', anything at all could work. We could talk about stalling deals, not wanting to listen to diplo advice (Lux, 'invasion of Bob') and thus harming us indirectly. We could even say: Oh, we thuoght they were going to attack, as they were massing up forces. So we took them out first.

etc.

DeepO

[Arrian]

I'm thinking of even needing to disband Grog

NEVER! GROG LIVES!

Anyway... I'm not sold on war just yet. However, if it's to be done, we need a mix of sword and WC. Preferably, however, I would like to go in with Knights. We know Vox has upgraded some Immortals, so they will do bad things to a slowmover stack (and a fastmover stack in jungle/forest/hills). Therefore, I'd want a few spearmen or pikemen for cover - to eat up the Immortal attacks. They would need to be vets.

We don't have those troops, do we? Nope.

I propose this: the Spartan Academy comes up with a couple of different "Orders of Battle" for an invasion of Vox. These are presented to the economists (think of it as procurement requests) and they let us know how long each OoB would take to assemble... and how much damage each would do to other plans.

The first OoB can be Theseus' suggestion.

My suggestion would be a force of 4 swords (upgraded... meaning some regular, some vet, right?), 4 pikemen and 12 Knights (upgrades from horse or WC). Obviously, we wouldn't have time to plunk down Leo's for the upgrade, so full price on those knights.

Second suggestion might be a larger force, with us taking a shot at Leos. That would involve waiting quite a bit, but using a larger force. Something like 8 pikemen + 20-25 knights. At that point, screw regular swords. If we have some vet warriors, fine, otherwise, go straight knights. Either upgraded or built.

Keep this in mind - removing Vox will have 3 main benifits: 1) wiping out an unpredictable, unstable neighbor with a nasty attack UU; 2) gaining us some land. Note that the land in question isn't all that great; and 3) giving us complete control of our continent, and removing the possibility of attack via Vox's lands (either by Vox or via a Bobian civ that used a RoP w/Vox or conquered Vox and moved on us).

Removing Vox will also cost us: 1) units lost in combat. Never assume a war will be easy; 2) The production/gold required to send those units into combat with enough numbers/quality to win; 3) diplomatic goodwill from other civs, maybe.

The biggest reason I see to go in would be benifit #3: control of our continent. The Bobian civs stand a pretty good chance (barring some sort of quagmire war) of eventually outstripping our economic output. But owning our own landmass would force any would-be agressors to invade us, and I'm reasonably certain that we could make life VERY difficult for any such "visitors."

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

I suggest that no one speak a word of anything to any other teams prior to us having the save on the invasion turn.

We can hold it for 24 hours while the diplomats chat and prepare the groundwork. Then it will not be a surprise to anyone important. and we will be able to place our own spin on the event.

Anything said to any other team must be assumed to be known by Vox within 4 hours or less of it being said. Do not give them, or anyone else, any time to prepare during their own turns.

[DeepO]

I agree nye, with one exception: if we would get into a 'alliance' with Lego, we have to warn them in front that something is happening, without precising what it would be.

In case of a war, I fully agree we need the 24 hours, not for war planning, but for diplo contacts. We'll need them.

As to propaganda: we can prepare many of these things in advance, so we shuld do so.

DeepO

[zeit]

I think we should seriously debate whether or not we're going to wage war on Vox in the near future or not. After that we'll get into exactly when and how exactly. We also have a thread for the military buildup, which is obviously influenced by answer to the question: "are we going to go to war in the near future?, but has life of it's own- 'cause we need to build some sort army anyway.


Now, do we want to wage war on Vox in the near future (sometime around our GA) or not?

I personally think we should, we should strike while they're still strongly antagonized by Bob. Vox is currently making preparations (or so they said) for a return to Bob, after they consolidate themselves there, or, more likely kicked out again, one of two things may happen: Vox turns to us with their Immortals, or the Bobian take their chance at Vox, possibly even at us- viewing us as unable to take care of Vox, and indirectly supporting it. With the boost we'd get from the Pyramids and our GA, the army necessary to get the job done will can be raised in relatively small effort.

Please give your own answers to the question.