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**DeepO** · March 8, 2003, 09:45

Re: Turn 69, 1300BC

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
- How do we want to respond to Vox's request for gold?

Our gold is to important to us, if Vox wants it, they can have MM from us. I don't want to pay for Vox getting a better relation with GoW, let them wait.

BTW, have we got HBR from them yet, or are they keeping it from us? They might think something like: you don't pay us 20 gold for MM, we don't give you HBR for free.

- Settler moves 1, to the city site (assuming it's there)

Yes it is, otherwise we would lose a bit of sea to profit from.

DeepO

**Shiber** · March 8, 2003, 09:46

AFAIK we already asked Vox to research Polytheism.
Regarding the gold issue: there hasn't been any discussion in the Vox threads about this for at least a day. Is there a concensus that we're not going to pay, one way or another? (e.g. by telling Vox that we lost a free map of Bob because of their irresponsibility, so we owe them nothing for the time being)

**Harovan** · March 8, 2003, 09:49

Well, as I said two months ago. I don't have the time to follow all discussions in all threads. If some question is already solved, just edit it out.

**alva** · March 8, 2003, 10:06

Re: Re: Turn 69, 1300BC

Originally posted by DeepO

Our gold is to important to us, if Vox wants it, they can have MM from us. I don't want to pay for Vox getting a better relation with GoW, let them wait.

DeepO

They should break of the deal with GoW anyway, and wait until they can get MM from us (for free).
They don't really need right now, do they.

The feeling I get from the last messages from RP and GoW is that they are starting to pick on VOX. IMO no matter what VOX does, they won't get a good relationship with either of them.

It looks as if they are looking for a way to get a dispute going.

Why I 'm not really sure, maybe they want to invade Vox in the future so they can get a base on our continent (and a way to get to us?), or it's just some Lux residue.
Or even because VOX is the smallest one out there and a possible target to bulley (and get away with it, since most of them still think their are a pain in the but to us.)

btw: DeepO, a little tipsy???, yeah right

**DeepO** · March 8, 2003, 10:33

I'm not certain if Vox is smallest, it doesn't sound like GoW has a lot of cities either (they have a larger military). But yes, I also had the impression that both GoW and RP were starting to pick on them. Also, now that Lux is gone, Vox can become a prime target for ND, or even a combined ND-GoW force. And once those teams learn more about our relation, they will be certainly willing to invade our continent, to keep us from ganing too much.

Originally posted by alva
btw: DeepO, a little tipsy???, yeah right

erhmm... only a little, I could still type and read

DeepO

**alva** · March 8, 2003, 11:04

Well, maybe not the smallest civ, but the easiest to take on without any (less) repurcusions and risks.
Even going after GoW will make yourself more vulnarable to be backstabbed by the third civ. (see the risk comment from Aeson)
Like I said, they think it's allright to go after Vox, since we will give our blessing (from their POV).

erhmm... only a little, I could still type and read

Maybe you should reread your posts from lastnight

**Shiber** · March 8, 2003, 11:08

I doubt that we're going to see a combined ND-GoW force anytime soon. GoW know perfectly well that ND would have attacked them if Lux hadn't provided them so many casus belli. They certainly won't like the prospects of leaving their own lands more open for attack while they go on an adventure overseas.
Furthermore, GoW has no iron at the moment. Their entire military is made out of warriors and spearmen, and they won't be building any swordsmen or riders until someone gives them a supply of iron.

**Shiber** · March 8, 2003, 11:13

Originally posted by alva
Like I said, they think it's allright to go after Vox, since we will give our blessing (from their POV).

Interesting... this is one of the unwelcome side effects of giving other teams the impression that we and Vox are at the brink of war.

**alva** · March 8, 2003, 11:18

Furthermore, GoW has no iron at the moment.

I was under the impression, they do posses iron, just that it's very close to ND's border.
-

Interesting... this is one of the unwelcome side effects of giving other teams the impression that we and Vox are at the brink of war.

I wouldn't do anything about it though, as soon as Luxians begin to spread amongst the other teams, they will see things slightly differently, even if they don't know the whole picture.
(it will be interesting to know, how for example Ixnay perceived the situation between us and Vox, that could give us a good insight on how other teams see us (and Vox))

**Shiber** · March 8, 2003, 12:03

Originally posted by alva
I was under the impression, they do posses iron, just that it's very close to ND's border.

I never heard anything to support that, but maybe I've missed something. Could you post what quotes you have that support your estimate?

**zeit** · March 8, 2003, 12:06

Well, the situation with Vox is getting more and more entangled- we don't want to upset them by not giving them the 20 gold, but we didn't like what they did to Lux, or at least their timing. It's obvious Vox is under pressure from GoW- its because of their angered note, that Vox took Portia back.

What should we do?
I see it this way: we can't keep our secret about Vox for very much longer, but this might be all that we need- our trading will decrease, and we will start thinking on taking Vox ourselves, while the international community is best kept in the dark. But, i think we need some international credit before we decide to grab the Voxian land, therefor, we ought to keep our secret safe, and keep the BOBians content. By not giving Vox the gold, we a delay in their dealing with GoW- and HotE might make the obvious conclusion. This, along the HBR we got from Vox might be enough to alienate them, and possibly the entire continent.
I also see this as a chance to stand behind Lux- they will be blinded by our genorosity and willingness to support them- which makes the day of betrayal eve sweeter...

In short, 20 gold is not much. It reduces the risk of our secret blowing up now, when the tension regarding the entire Lux-Vox-GS affair has not yet dissipated, and also keeps Vox closer to us- a clear interest for us now, IMHO.

**alva** · March 8, 2003, 12:51

[devils]
Well, we need somekind of excuse too if we want to go to war with Vox.
Let Vox be the bad guy in this, and have relations deteriorate (with Bob) slowly.

We won't get blamed for trading HBR, vox will
[/devilsadvocate]

It's risky, if Vox tells everyone about our deal once their gone, but even then we havn't broken any promises, deals, treaties, etc..
-
Shiber, I'll see if I can come up with a few later tonight. If I'm right of-course

**DeepO** · March 8, 2003, 13:16

GoW - iron, I was also under the impression they had iron, and were simply securing a second source...
from last PM from HotE:

I am pleased that you have been upfront regarding the iron issue. As I have mentioned before, we have a source, but we don't really need it until Pikes & Knights become available.

and

But as you say, you cannot do a trade now, and we don't really need it yet until the next age. (And maybe we will never need it). You still need HBR right ? Perhaps this can be included in our payment to you ?

Quite contradictory... I was reading the 'you can't trade now' as another inidcation: you can see what resources others have connected, if you have connected them yourself: it will either show as 'iron(0)' in your trade screen, or won't show at all. We don't have an iron connected, but if GoW has, they can see we don't have an iron hooked up...

I'm not sure this is the case, it could simply be that they have a source of iron next to a city, but fear that city to get destroyed in the first turn of war, and need another source after that...

20 gold: I'd rather give it to GoW, together whith the message that we have strucken(sp?) a deal with Vox on MM, but we consider the tech to be theirs, and want to share some of our profit to them, then to keep silent, give it to Vox, and let Vox do another trade. We don't want to alienate us, that's true, but I really don't see a point in giving Vox the means to become closer to Gow at our expense.

DeepO

**notyoueither** · March 8, 2003, 13:17

Be careful, We don't have MM from GoW yet.

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Turn 69, 1300BC

Turn 69, 1300BC

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