Ending the tech deal with Vox: Whether, When and How

[Shiber]

The title says it all.

Aeson suggested that we must continue this deal at least up to the beginning of the middle ages. That way, we can enjoy the benefits of Vox's scientific trait and get (most likely) Monotheism (36). Feudalism (32) isn't bad either.
I'd like to add that at some point (by the time GoW has forgotten about HBR), we tell Vox to gift it to us (preferably when this is the last tech needed to leave the Ancient Era, since we have no other use for HBR).
Btw, we do need Polytheism (12) to leave the Ancient Age, right? We certainly wouldn't want to research this lousy tech ourselves, so we may want Vox to research it for us once they're done with Currency (16) instead of buying it.

[DeepO]

Shiber, I doubt that Vox will be able to research Currency and polytheism at a decent pace. We are going to start on republic (28?) once they can start on their next tech, and we research over twice as fast as them, even after they would get Portia back. I'm not going to wait for 15 turns until Vox finally gets that tech

further, polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob, so we'll get it from them if we need to.

As to ending the deal: I said before in the Vox comments thread that I think that once we give them what we gain from CoL, they are certainly been given more then we got. Republic makes it swing largely in our disadv. again, and after we would get their free tech, we would lose badly on each tech. I think that from that point on at least, we should change the deal, so that we still have a 'most-valued partner', but no longer a 'blindly-give-everything partner'. Also, I don't like that Lux now has more inside information then the other teams, they only stay in the game for fun, and I doubt they are as seriously commited to secrecy as we are.

DeepO

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
further, polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob, so we'll get it from them if we need to.

You're right. Not everyone realizes that there's no WW in MP, so some civs would want to research Monarchy (others may want it for the wonder too).

Re: ending the deal, I recommend that we decide on a point (e.g. a few turns after we get the medieval tech that Vox would get for free) where we announce to Vox that we intend to end this trade deal in 20 turns, and would like to set up some sort of a uniform system for future tech trades (e.g. techs will be worth their cost factor in gold times 15, so Monotheism, for example, would be worth 540 gold or Feudalism + 60 gold). The 20 turns ahead announcement would make them less upset at us, I hope.

[alva]

On the other hand, the middle ages are nicely divided (tech wise), in that we can do one branch and Vox the other(maybe switch from time to time when we need something faster).
As long as they are no real threat, we could keep them.
Or try to let someelse destroy them....

But don't worry, I wouldn't use my veto if would persist on clearing the land

polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob

You mean to get to monarchy so you don't suffer WW? Republic doesn't either in MP.

[DeepO]

hmm... I briefly overlooked the WW issue... I wonder why this was implemented. Still, there is a good chance that one of Bob's civs goes for it, if only for the trade value.

As to the 20-turn until end notification to Vox, I'm not sure, it would feel quite abruptly. I'd rather transform the deal earlier, so that we get that most-valued partner status between our two nations, I always considered the current deal as dangerous, and not too detailed. We really have to watch out for them becoming suspicous to us, they stated in the last log again that they were afraid of us, by ending the deal unilateral this feeling would only be reinforced. In my mind, a transformation would be better then an end, and if we want to attack Vox in the middle ages (which is highly possible), we might want to start negotiating well before we give republic to them.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, Alva, the middle age is indeed perfect for a 2-partner tech rush, but there is one significant problem: Vox is not nearly as brilliant as us in science. We could become very limited in our freedom if we need to wait for them.

DeepO

[Aeson]

If we swing it right we could take a commanding lead with Vox pretty quickly. Best case scenario is they get Monotheism, and start on Theology. We don't accept Monotheism from them until we have to, and research Engineering or Feudalism (depends on if/what Lux gets as their free tech). This negates the GL somewhat (whoever gets it), and makes it look less like a trading partnership between us. If we and Vox go into the Middle Ages at about the same time, and we suddenly have their tech, it looks fishy.

If we can include Lux and 1.21f in this somehow, we and/or Vox can be researching second level Middle Age techs before anyone else (other than Lux) is out of the Ancient Era. The dangerous part of this is dealing with Lux with something so important.

[DeepO]

That looks like a nice plan, but doesn't our problem of infinite tech alliance with Vox remains?

Also, if we would go military, pikes and knights are very important to us, otherwise we might want to go for education ourselves, and be sure to trade it to whoever builds the GL asap.

DeepO

[alva]

Depending on how the situation is on Vox I would even think about stopping trade completely (or at least slow it down)

WW: my guess is exploit. Put a couple of defensive units in enemy terrain, sit back and watch WW creep in.
I'don't agree with it, but that's my guess.

[Theseus]

A Spartan perspective:

Knights. Pikes. Middle Ages GA and Wonders.

Yum yum.

[DeepO]

Now why didn't this surprise me, but made me smile anyway

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think for the moment there is no clear advantage to deciding to end our tech alliance. Our military is in such a sorry state from an offensive perspective that it will take some time before we could really consider taking Vox out.

In a situation of tech parity, we should have the upper hand against Vox. We don't even know if they have Horses, and will be more likely to build along the Swords path anyways. Our production and commerce capacity should allow us a much larger standing army in any case. With Vox tech parity not being such a concern, focusing on as big a tech advantage as possible on the Bob factions even if it means helping Vox out more than we get out of it (from a beaker standpoint), should be advantageous to us.

[DeepO]

well... there is one disadvantage that scares me a little: Vox might see this deal as a permanent one (they certainly act that way), and the longer we keep it going, the more upset they will be when we end, or change it. That's why I wouldn't mind changing it before we trade republic to them, simply because they won't feel cheated on when we end it after 2000 years.

Other then that, I agree, currently we've got the most important advantage out of this deal, and that is stability on our continent, which allows us to concentrate more on building up our empire, instead of only our military. And that won't change easily, we'll need at least another 40 turns before we can put all this production into a military force.

DeepO

[Aeson]

They have to realize that eventually the deal will end. We both can't win. I'm pretty certain they are going to understand this, and even if they don't it's not really our problem. We have been talking about Republic to them under the current agreement, and if we renege on those deals, even just to change the deal a bit, wouldn't be a good idea. A good time to modify the agreement would be after we get their Middle Age tech.

Vox is planning on settling Lux's lost land on BOB right?

[DeepO]

AFAIK, Vox won't find the space to settle, ND and GoW are dividing it amongst themselves...

I can see your reasons for wanting to keep quiet on the deal, and although I don't fully agree, I respect them.

DeepO