Will we allow Vox to save Lux?

[nbarclay]

The cost of having EotS build military units instead of workers is extremely high. Building a military unit gives you one unit. Building a worker gives you some combination of (1) irrigation and mines to improve cities' productivity, (2) roads to let the military move around faster, and (3) population added to outlying cities to make them more productive. In the absence of a military emergency, those things are ultimately a lot more valuable than using two turns' production in EotS for military purposes.

We're probably going to be stuck stockpiling gold for a few turns waiting for Vox to finish Philosophy. That will give us a "war chest" for emergency upgrades should the need arise, or we could even go ahead and do one or two upgrades if we feel the need. I don't like what that would do to our research down the road, but at least it wouldn't undercut our long-term productivity the way diverting EotS's attention away from building workers would.

We might also think about asking for some gold to help pay for the increased border enforcement expenses that this deal will create if it goes through. (And the hint that if Vox invites Lux in, it could provoke a military build-up on our part might possibly make Vox think twice too.)

Nathan

[alva]

(And the hint that if Vox invites Lux in, it could provoke a military build-up on our part might possibly make Vox think twice too.)

Indeed, if Vox get's the impression that their deal with Lux could provoke the gs hawks to become active again, there is a good chance they might reconsider.
Or at least share some of their wealth.

[Theseus]

Speaking from the Spartan Academy, I concur with Nathan.

From this narrow perspective (acknowledging broader games issues and priorities), I would say in any case that Workers are almost as important as military units at this early stage of the game... let each town do what it can do best.

I worry about two things: 1) sufficient defense, and 2) sufficient offense. We are getting there, but let's keep our collective eye on ball, and stay balanced.

[alva]

Another small BTW:
Vox having one less city, how corrupt it maybe, slows down our tech advance too.

[notyoueither]

I agree from a purely building view that workers in EotS makes sense.

However, from an MP view a lack preparedness could cost us the entire game. How effective are those workers then?

I think it is folly to continue down the road of the maxed out builder in the face of the lessons of how unpredictable the events of this game are going to be. Yes, I feel that the capitol as a Worker pump is maxed out.

Why can't Tempest fill this roll with the odd worker from EotS thrown in?

[nbarclay]

If we're going to divert a city to military use, Tempest would be a better choice than EotS. We could even use workers from EotS to pump up its size after building the tile improvements needed to make the effort worthwhile. I'm not entirely thrilled with the idea, but we can afford to lose Tempest as a worker-producing city a lot better than we could afford to lose EotS as one. (And building up Tempest's size could fit reasonably well with the possibility of using it as a wonder-producing city once we get out of Despotism.)

Nathan

[notyoueither]

Tempest could not be made into a 2 or 3 turn Worker factory fairly soon?

[nbarclay]

Tempest can work fine as a 5-turn worker pump once it gets up to speed, but trying to squeeze anything more out of it would be an exercise in futility. It doesn't have a granary and could not build one in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time. Production is also a serious problem. I suppose with a temple to expand its radius, we could get it from five turns to four, but it would have to grow to size 5 to pull that off, and by the time we'd get a temple built and get the city up to size, we'd be past the time where the extra workers would do us a huge amount of good.

I do like the idea of getting at least two or three workers out of Tempest before it moves on to other things. But if things reach a point where we feel a need to build extra units at the expense of worker production, Tempest is the logical city to sacrifice for that cause.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

My latest message from Beta sounds like the city transfer is a done deal.

[notyoueither]

With any luck the continentals will thrash about looking for the lost settler.

No one should breathe a word of this to anyone outside us and Vox.

btw, prepare the denials for when and if ND and GoW discover the ruse. That makes it even mor imperative that no one from GS ever present this being anything we were involved with or had any say over. Best to just shut up.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
My latest message from Beta sounds like the city transfer is a done deal.

Great. They carry out the deal anyway, and we don't get to set any conditions.
We've missed the train.

I'm pretty sure that Vox did this for loads of gold from Lux. Had we taken the opportunity, we could have forced Lux to give us half the money they were going to give to Vox so that we don't blow the deal and expose Lux, or destroy them ourselves.
Maybe we can start charging some protection money from Lux, in exchange for keeping their secret and keep our troops away from their city.

[Harovan]

Sad that we don't have a military, to enforce our will. Let's attack the Luxian city anyway. After all, we're "Trash Trips Ass" and not "Save Trips Ass".

[DeepO]

okay, I've been away for a couple of days, and now look what happens... Lux gets within reach

If we were to vote on this, my vote would have been a NO!. Sure, it weaks Vox by letting Lux hold one of their cities, but you can be sure that Lux paid enough for this. So, we would now face a possible immortals attack, a more powerful Vox (don't forget that maybe part of the deal was that Lux sends all it's workers to Vox), and a blame on our reputation to the rest of the world. I don't like it.

But, it looks like we aren't going to be able to do something about it. The least we can do is make sure to Vox that nobody here really approves of it, and we seek compensation in some form. They are delaying our research, they are risking our standing in the rest of the world, And themselves they become a bigger liability to us too.

I agree with many of the demands proposed here, like not once entering 'our' territory, no military force buildup, no immortals, and possible Lux's map in exchange for at least a bit of security. I don't think we can ask for compensation, in that we receive part of the pay of Vox, but that's something different.

BTW, how would such a deal go through? If Vox gives D-ville, and Lux disbands their capital, get all troops present in the capital be transferred to D-ville? Otherwise, it's almost certain that Vox is going to gain all workers from Lux, and we should be able to spot that for at least one turn in the military advisor. If so, I definately think we should demand for half their workers, we can't have Vox expanding as a result of this, it's already too bad they are going to gain money out of it.

DeepO

[DeepO]

BTW, what about doublecrossing Lux, and the moment they are being gifted the city, we simply move a warrior in? Afterwards, we can propose to Vox that they can buy it back from us, at the expense of 100 gold, or 1 worker or something similar. We didn't promise anything to Lux, we didn't promise anything to Vox, and since we're selling their city back for a serious discount, they can't blame us violating the border treaty.

DeepO

[alva]

No one should breathe a word of this to anyone outside us and Vox.

btw, prepare the denials for when and if ND and GoW discover the ruse. That makes it even mor imperative that no one from GS ever present this being anything we were involved with or had any say over. Best to just shut up.

Or do the opposite and go public.