DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[DeepO]

Shiber: Sorry, sooner then 9pm GMT is not possible for me, it really is the earliest I can make it. Normally, I wouldn't mind at all if you would start before me, but not in this case, the relation to lego is still very unripe and fragile, I would really like it if I can keep the GS-voice-to-Lego role for a bit longer. Later on open chat should not be a problem, but now, we should look out for them getting a messy idea of us, I strongly suggest I moderate our side of the chat to Lego.

Beeline for cavalry... dunno... it sounds ok, as Bob will have 3-move UUs, so maybe their emphasis won't be on the Southern route. But if we want to really pull it off, we should either have an insane amount of cash by then to rushbuy knights / WCs before cavs, or we need to get Lego in to the fight. I hope I'm wrong, but somehow, I don't see us dominating enough to pul off a cav rush, Bob has 3 teams which could get them to riflemen rather quickly.

Not trading techs with Bob: another thing to consider, but (at least at first) not really viable. The moment we shut them out of our tech dealing, they are going to unite against us, which means we'll have a hard time, while Lego can sail right along... not our best option. Maybe we can do it later on, after education has been distributed (so a possible GL does not become an issue), and / or after our GA has given us double the territory we could get peacefully.

Short term, I think we should try to convince Lego to get us to knights asap. And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

DeepO

[Aeson]

If RP is researching Republic themselves why aren't they shopping it around? They will almost certainly finish it the turn after we give it to Vox and Lego if they are... if not the turn after we do. So Republic isn't worth a whole lot either in that case.

The 70 gold isn't a bad idea if RP is researching it. We likely just make it back in the MT trade, and would be better for relations. Lets ask RP if they are interested in saving (remaining) beakers by splitting the difference with us, as there is no longer a potential NDA we'd be breaking. They stand to get Republic just as fast, if not sooner, while making another turn or two of gold. We would of course give them the exclusive resale right to ND if they already have a deal.

If we can figure out that RP isn't researching it, then the NDA enforced with GoW should open up RP and ND for trading.

[alva]

Short term, I think we should try to convince Lego to get us to knights asap. And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

Suppose they tell us, they are going for the pyramids and are nearly finished. To what are we going to switch? If we go GL, trade could suddenly become a completely different ballgame.

[zeit]

I'll try and make it to the chat- what's another hour of sleep prior to a 10-hours day of non-stop university studies, compared to pressing FA business?

We should point out that we would like to keep as less gold as possible from our deals- and make it a pure tech trading scheme. Any differences can be balanced by future trades, so there's no point in GS giving Lego money, than vice versa, and so forth, for every "in-game" trade we make.
After things have settled with Lego, wtr to the tech trade program, i think it would be appropriate to raise the issue of combined anti-Bob military alliance. The Bobians will surely get stronger, as they have ample room and plenty of Iron (especially RP). Although Lego might have enough territory- keeping the other super powers (like RP) in check could be in their interest as well. A Lego expeditionary (diversion) force striking on RP's east coast, and ours on the western could put an end to the main competitor. ND and GoW have both left RP alone, also because of the large jungle that seperates them- i'm sure they can be convinced of leaving themselves out of it.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
And I'm positive that if this gets mentioned in chat, I can squeeze in a question whether they were planning this, and have a pyramid prebuild for Sun Tzu, or simply have a pyramid build.

I suggest that we mask our intentions by telling them that we hope they are prebuilding for Sun Tzu's because if we can get Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's then Bob would become a lot less dangerous to both of us.

[DeepO]

good idea, Shiber, I'll try to fit it in. I would like to avoid answering questions on our wonders, that's why I want to squeeze the question in somewhere (like I did when asking lego for their research power), not making it a big point, but simply one of the smaller things that get chatted about. The Legos are easy, in that they follow a chat instead of leading one (at least they have done so far), which makes it possible, with a bit of preparation, to set the topics we want to discuss and avoid those we don't want mentioned.

Aeson: indeed, if RP goes for rep, it's quite likely they will finish a few turns after us, even the next turn if we have to give it to a few nations immediately. Chatting with them might be a good idea, and splitting the difference would certainly work. Who's RP's ambassador?

One problem on the NDAs though (I saw it while writing the PM): we didn't ask before that lego enforced an NDA on rep, and it makes sense for both of us to demand it, with one catch: if republic comes with a NDA, it's highly likely that either curr of constr will come with one too. We cannot risk that, we need to get these techs in time, not 10 turns after we get republic.

Keep the comments coming, guys, a lot of useful stuff in here

DeepO

[Shiber]

Interesting message from Legoland.
Seems like they're pulling a fast one on us, asking for 80 gold to balance the deal (didn't they ask for 70 gold before?). Even though, I suggest that we forward the 80 gold along with Republic, but explain that we are not entirely pleased with the price that Lego have set.
We've got Sunday's chat to work on a deal for Vox's MT, and to coordinate our mutual research in the next era.

[zeit]

80 gold is totally unexpectable IMHO. Didn't they get we don't have any resale potential for currency?
we have agreed to give them the MT in a favourable price for them -what kind of favourable price do they give us on their techs- nothing! we have no resale value for Const. No resale for Currency.

The Legos don't seem to understand we're seeking a tech alliance- any difference can be balanced later on. I'm tempted to get into the chatroom and try to explain this to redstar, but we'll have to wait until sunday, i guess. (we'll have the time, so nothing to worry).

[nbarclay]

If Lego is portraying both Currency and Construction as things they've researched themselves (are they?), something seems to stink horribly. Lego's GNP is lower than what we have left over after corruption, and the culture graph gives no hint that they might have built a library. And if they just now got Currency, they can't have had marketplaces to help with their research. So it's hard to see how they could research a cost-20 tech and a cost-16 tech in less time than it took us to research a cost-28 tech. (Presumably, they hadn't started either Currency or Construction when they were planning to start on Republic themselves, which was after we started Republic.) Or do I have something in my timeline mixed up?

Nathan

[zeit]

I think they said they got construction from a hut.

[DeepO]

Nathan, no matter what they say, I strongly doubt they researched constr. themselves.

As to the 80 gold: I don't agree either, but I advised before to let it drop, I can't keep pushing them without upsetting them.

One thing we need to check: beaker cost for constr+curr in game! How many teams got it by now?

my reply has been sent. Do I need to make an official poll for this, or does everyone agrees 80 gold is too much?

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I checked the research costs for Currency and Construction, and the results are as follows:

Currency is at least 343 and no more than 351.

Construction is at least 426 and no more than 432.

This is consistent with the same number of civs having both techs, and if I remember right, it's consistent with that being just one civ.

[DeepO]

Thanks Nathan. So somehow, the legos got a hand on constr before someone else too... maybe 80 gold is not that bad...

I can explain to them it surprises us that they got both techs, given their lesser research potential, asking where the second one comes from... but I think I know the answer: there where (at least) 2 more huts on little Bob, one of those could have contained constr.

Still. I think the price is high, in chat we definately need to discuss options for further, more advantageous tech trades. I don't mind the legos saving cash, or gaining, but preferably that gain comes from Bob, and not from us

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Since we're dealing in second-researcher prices, 80 gold is actually not unreasonable. It's a little less than half the difference in second-researcher costs for the techs involved. Of course the fact that Lego is offering us only a so-so deal won't help our enthusiasm to give them great deals later.

[Shiber]

Lego have told us by the diplomatic channels that they got Construction from a hut, so if we ask them again where they got it from, it would appear like we think they're lying; mistrust is not the message we are trying to convey here, so I would advise against it.
I've rethought the whole 80 gold thing, and I've come to the conclusion that we should refuse to their offer at the moment. Sunday's chat would make an excellent opportunity to explain to Lego that, as Zeit said, we are seeking a partner and we can balance this deal in future exchanges, and furthermore, that we're nobody's fools, and they can't simply pull a fast one on us like that, allowing themselves to set a high price for the tech just because they've just discovered the tech and there's no time left for discussions.
Let's finish Republic, and then start stockpiling gold until this thing is resolved and we can enter the next era, and then use that gold to rush a library or something. Btw, are we working on any deals for Republic with any of the Bobian civs?