Research Discussion

[nbarclay]

Proposed message to Vox:

Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli,

My apologies for not getting back in touch about question of what directions our research should take more quickly. The main reason plotting a research course is proving to be complicated is that we are not quite sure how trades with other civs can fit into the picture. We definitely want to get Republic quickly, but we also want Literature so libraries can help speed our research along the way. That leads to two possibilities, if you are interested in cooperating.

Option 1: If we can find another civ that would be interested, we could research either Literature or Code of Laws and trade it for the other while you research Philosophy. That would provide both our civs with the accelerated research that comes from libraries without undercutting our beeline for Republic.

Option 2: If we can't find a civ interested in lining up a trade of Literature for Code of Laws in advance, we could research Literature and then Philosophy while you research Code of Laws. That would slow down the start of research into Republic a little, but the hope would be that libraries would buy back the lost time along the way and put our two civilizations in a stronger research position from then on.

Unfortunately, either of these plans would require a delay in your starting your next line of research. But as libraries become operational, the gold accumulated while waiting will be needed for their upkeep, so the loss of research potential is merely short-term, not long-term. We hope that this proposal (whichever option ends up proving to be practical) meets with your approval.

In the meantime, we've started making discrete inquiries regarding the possibility of the Code of Laws for Literature swap. We are, of course, keeping your role in our plans quiet, since we agree that it's best for the rest of the world not to know any more about our partnership than they have to.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[zeit]

Looks good, hope Vox will understand the benefits of halting their research, or atleast not commit themselves to some deal offered by someone else. Maybe an quick summary on the benefits of Republic and library will help them make their mind?

[DeepO]

Looks good indeed, but I hope that they will get the hint of the last paragraph. It's obvious to me, but somehow I don't think they are looking through our proposals word for word.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
Looks good indeed, but I hope that they will get the hint of the last paragraph. It's obvious to me, but somehow I don't think they are looking through our proposals word for word.

If you go back and read Vox's messages, I think you'll see that they already recognize the advantages of letting the rest of the world assume things are tense between us rather than revealing our true relationship. That being the case, I didn't want to sound like I'm telling them something they already know.

[DeepO]

Oh, but I agree, you can't pressure them much harder then this... but still, them being very liberal with what kind of diplo information they leak to us got me a bit scared. We can't deny it once anyone asks directly, that's another implication of playing honorable, so let's hope they're carefull in not mentioning it too hard.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

We can't deny it once anyone asks directly, that's another implication of playing honorable, so let's hope they're carefull in not mentioning it too hard.

We can deny anything about ourselves we darn well please. Honourable does not mean stupid. People may ask us all sorts of things, we are under no obligation to give truthful answers about sensitive information.

but about other things...

I think it is clear from RPGs note that we should not rely on Vox for anything in our direct path. There is always the very real chance that they will deceive us and not research their assigned tech, instead planning on trading for it. If they cannot trade... we could find ourselves needlessly delayed and our plans upset.

Would it not be better to set them to MM and ask them to see if they can find a source for Philosophy? That points them in the direction we want them to go so that they can comfortably exercise their deceptive nature to our advantage. ie, trade for tech. If, by the time we complete Code of Laws they do not provide Philosophy, then we commence researching it without delay.

I think that would eliminate the chance that uncertainty over Vox and exactly what they are doing could delay our reaching Republic.

[nbarclay]

It was Lux, not Vox, that pulled that stunt of counting on trading instead of researching. I suppose it's theoretically possible that Vox could try such a thing, but no more so than it would be with anyone else.

Also consider that Lux operates on a market economy basis, one deal at a time. In contrast, Vox seems inclined to hitch themselves to us for the long haul if we'll let them. It's a bit hard for me to imagine Vox pulling a stunt that would jepopardize that position. (Edit: Unless become afraid we're about to dump them anyhow.)

Also, there is essentially no chance that Vox's research would be disrupted by fighting by the time they get Philosophy. From what RP says, other civs are more likely to be distracted by preparations for possible war, or perhaps even by actual fighting.

So I don't think having Vox handle the Philosophy part poses a particularly higher risk than having someone else do it.

Nathan

[notyoueither]

Didn't they trade for IW when they were supposed to be researching it?

[nbarclay]

My understanding is that a trade possibility came up while they were researching it so they went ahead and traded instead. Had the trade opportunity not come up, they would still have gotten Iron Working, just not quite as quickly.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Just one remark, RPG is not totally honest either, if I understand everything correctly. Didn't Vox say that they could acquire Mysticism from RPG? they haven't researched that themselves, they either got it from ND or GoW, or from a hut. So they can whine about Lux selling them a tech they haven't researched (thereby limiting RPGs trade options), but they are doing the same to Vox.

Also, Togas seemed to imply this NDA, but I hadn't heard anything from GK regarding this. Maybe this comes from not having negotiated tech deals with RPG before, maybe it was simply a personal issue of Togas. No matter what, we need to detail this in each tech deal from now on, and also better ask what Vox's ideas are when it comes to NDAs on techs. I think for the moment they simply consider everything you got yours, no matter how you got it.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

As I understand it, what Lux did that has RP unhappy was to arrange deals in advance as if they were researching themselves and then count on trades to give them what they promised. As a result, if the trades on the other side didn't work out, Lux couldn't deliver on its promises. That made Lux's promises of future trades significantly less reliable than they would have been if Lux did their own research. And it was also seriously dishonest for Lux to portray themselves as doing the research when they were apparently stockpiling gold while waiting for trades to go through.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Oh, Lux certainly lost a lot of appeal as a long term trader from me too, after last message. And yes, I think you're right in your interpretation, although I first read it as if their deal went through, and they were able to give RPG what they wanted.

It's very interesting that GoW was the one blowing the Lux-Vox connection, obviously spilling the beans to other teams as well. Of course, it is opportunistic, but at least GoW didn't think it to be the honorable thing. If I was in such a situation, you'd be a big boy if you manage to pass me for contacts, I would fortify some spears there, and isloate away. I wouldn't think of it as dishonorable either, but apparently both GoW as RPG were upset by this.

The problem with trying to be devious is that it only works as long as nobody finds out, I think Lux is going to get it tough in this game if RPG is able to spread some more 'info' on how they dealt. But I would like it: let it come, everything they want to tell us is good for us.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

After NYE's objections, I never did get my message to Vox sent off. I'm revising it in light of RP's message.

Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli,

My apologies for not getting back in touch about question of what directions our research should take more quickly. The main reason plotting a research course is proving to be complicated is the question of how trades with other civs will fit into the picture. We definitely want to get Republic quickly, but we also want Literature so libraries can help speed our research along the way. After some discussion with RolePlay, it looks like there's a good possibility of a trade to them for Literature if we get Code of Laws, so it seems worthwhile to proceed with our original plan (assuming you're willing). Specifically, if you would research Philosophy while we research Code of Laws, that would set things up for us to then go full speed for Republic (freeing us both from the pain of despotism as quickly as possible).

We regret the inconvenience that holding up your research until we can provide Writing will cause, but assuming the Literature deal goes through (RP won't give a firm commitment in advance), the gold surplus you build up along the way could be spent fairly quickly on library maintenance. And the benefits of Republic should be well worth the inconvenience.

By the way, was your not offering the two techs again this turn deliberate, or did you not realize you would need to make the offer again to keep it open? We hope our wanting to formalize the trading partnership atreement is not causing you too much concern.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[zeit]

Damn this exams period, seems like i missed a critical 36 period of intense diplomatic occurrences. What's the deal with the GoW spilling the beans over Vox-Lux dealings, and how does RPG has to do with it?

As for the research- as i understand we're planning on spliting the Republic project between Vox and us, as well as one more team (RPG, probably), so, we should propose such an arrangement to civ X and to Vox (after the approve of the current offer) and finalize it.

Also- getting contacts will be neccesary- do we know Lux is buying ours from Vox, or that Vox is willing to trade for it?

[nbarclay]

All we really want from RP is to trade Code of Laws for Literature. I'd rather not let them in on the whole thing, although if they can come up with techs of comparable total value to Republic, a trade would be worth considering. With Vox, assuming they don't throw the idea out the window in light of our not being willing to make the deal permanent, we have a "give each other all techs discovered" agreement, and I don't think we could legitimately back out of it without giving them Republic after using them to help get the prerequisites.

Unless we've poisoned things since, Vox is willing to go ahead and set up the contacts once they get Writing, but they'd like to try to get what they can out of other teams in return. I'm inclined to let them try since we could reap some of the benefits either in tech or in speeding up Vox's ability to contribute research, as long as it doesn't cause problems for us. (The big thing is that if anyone discovers Code of Laws before we do, having contact with them would be useful to speed up our research.)

Nathan