Turn 51, 1750BC

[Dominae]

I agree with DeepO. A little "slap on the wrist" to our childish neighbor is in order here. We need to get the message across to Vox (and members of our own team) that things that are discussed are not immediately ratified. Might I point out (again) that they liberally assumed and communicated with us as though the border treaty was ratified, and then slipped in a city under the pretense that it was not in fact ratified.

I say refuse the deal for this turn, sending them a message that we're interested in trading, but not under a "trade all techs" deal, at least not yet.

And, please, no comments about how a slap on the wrist is not the right way to treat a long-term partner: their behaviour toward us is much worse, and indicates they're a short-term asset but a long-term liability.


Dominae

[Harovan]

Shortly (have an awful lot to do...):

Both sides make good points. I really don't know how to play the turn. Some diplomacy is in order, to win time. And perhaps it's time for a poll.

[Dominae]

No matter what we decide eventually (with a poll!), we lose nothing by not accepting the deal this turn. If we do decide that "trade all techs" goes, we can ask Vox to send the techs again in a few turns; if we decide against it, we have not committed in bad faith.


Dominae

[Harovan]

Can throw in only short notes: I'm not talking about the techs, but we need the contacts. Of course there's a chance that Vox will sell contact to us to the other teams... but it would be good to have the contacts ASAP.

[Dominae]

I'm to school now, so I do not have time to think this through. But decisions are best not made in haste. Take your time Sir Ralph; I'm sure you'll make the right decision (or someone else will come online to advise you!).


Dominae

[DeepO]

Contacts are high on my agenda as well, but it would be silly of us to now accept a deal, by accepting the techs, that means Vox gives us some 8 worthless techs, for which they assume we'll be giving them 8 advanced techs when we get them. We haven't got a portocol signed with them, so most likely they are assuming we all agreed on the 'trade all techs deal', and even indefinate (as nowhere was talked about the end date or conditions). We can't let that happen, as agreeing to their gift now means that whenever we stop the tech deal, we would be breaking a promise.

So, first of all, reject their deal. Then, diplomacy (Nathan!), in which we clearly state that they are free to offer our contact to anyone they like, and if they make some gold in the process, that's good for them (gifts are always appreciated). Further, we need to get some discussion on the techs going, writing for the techs they're offering us now seems okay (if they have been trading our contact around).

Next, what to research next: maybe we can ask them to get to Monarchy, telling them we'll get to literature and MM ourselves asap. Or, ask them for MM, they'll need it first if they want to settle part of the main continent.

last, start negotiations on the slaves deal. And start negotiations with other partners, if the 4 teams are all tensed up, maybe we can broker techs for them... Vox could do it too, if they were a bit more smart about it.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Dominae, did you check the chat logs to verify whether or not they are behaving unreasonably in assuming that we are operating under a "trade all techs" deal for the time being? And as for our having nothing to lose, right now Vox trusts us enough to hand over techs without any guarantee in the game mechanics that they'll get something back. I view that kind of trust as a LOT to lose while we're working on the Great Library project! Also, you don't slap someone on the wrist and then turn your back on them - especially not someone whose behavior is "childish".

As for the border treaty, I'll remind you again that they said they were playing as if it was ratified, not that they assumed it already was. (Imagine a huge rival stack amassing right outside one of our cities. Would we not be likely to behave as if they had declared war even though no declaration of war actually came?) They did take advantage of the absence of a particular defined border to put Dissidentville in a place I'd proposed in a treaty version that I later told them our team had rejected, but their behavior was still consistent with assuming that some version of the border treaty would be ratified.

Sir Ralph, my understanding of the "trade all techs" deal was not that it was something that neither team could ever back out of under any circumstances for the entire rest of the game. I would consider us morally obligated to make sure that at the time we back out, Vox has gotten at least as much out of the deal as we have, preferably a little more. But especially after what they pulled with Alphabet earlier, I would have no qualms about renegotiating in light of the Great Library project.

I think we should accept the two techs they're offering now and give them Writing, but have them hold off giving us Horseback Riding. That keeps the balance of techs in a place where we can renegotiate in good faith without the time pressure that would be involved in trying to decide what our relationship with Vox will be in a single day. And it avoids the strain that would be likely to occur if we tell Vox, "No, the trade all techs deal is off," without coming back with a clear, concrete alternative. (I won't have a lot of time for diplomacy this week, and it's a lot easier to promote a decision that will ruffle feathers when you aren't the one who has to compose messages to try to smooth them back out!)

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Just got another message from Beta, posted in the ambassador's office.

[Harovan]

I also think we should accept the techs, but it has to be clear, that an eventual mutual research treaty can't last forever. Perhaps we could find a diplomatic solution, which gives both sides the advantage of a coordinated research, but both keep the opportunity to cancel it. Perhaps with a delay of, say, 10 or 20 turns between the cancellation and the end of the treaty, to guarantee security from surprising attacks.

Diplomats?

[nbarclay]

How about a combination of two things: (1) A minimum of 10 turns' advance notice, and (2) the party cancelling the agreement must act in good faith to ensure that the timing of the cancellation does not provide an unfair advantage in terms of what techs each side gets from the other (e.g. getting some lower-cost techs while researching an expensive one and then timing the deal to expire before the expensive one is finished)?

Nathan

[Harovan]

Yes, that sounds right. At the moment we can only profit from such a treaty. I think nobody, even the falcons among us, will deny this. And if both sides preserve the right of cancellation, with an appropriate mechanism to reduce the danger of war or outright unfairness, it should be acceptable even by Vox.

[nbarclay]

I put the proposal up for ratification in a poll thread. I'm hoping we'll get enough of a consensus by the time you play the turn to provide at least some guidance for how to handle Vox's in-game offer.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Dominae, did you check the chat logs to verify whether or not they are behaving unreasonably in assuming that we are operating under a "trade all techs" deal for the time being?

Yes (I've been through those chat logs 3 times now, and dang they're long!). Although there is a passage where you say that Gathering Storm is interested in such a deal, there is no real "finalization", which is why I personally get the impression nothing is agreed upon when a lot actually is.

I hope this is not too much to ask, but maybe the ambassadors could post a list of "current agreements/deal" for each civ (just like in SP, but a lot more complex). For those who aren't taking part in the actual discussions, it would be nice to have a handy reference of what exactly is officially going on between teams. Consider this a summary of the 'Contact' threads.

And as for our having nothing to lose, right now Vox trusts us enough to hand over techs without any guarantee in the game mechanics that they'll get something back. I view that kind of trust as a LOT to lose while we're working on the Great Library project!

True, but realistically we're not likely to lose anything. We wait one turn, ask them to clarify exactly what they expect from us, and move on. Any harm in that?

Also, you don't slap someone on the wrist and then turn your back on them - especially not someone whose behavior is "childish".

I was never insinuating that we should turn our back on them. In fact, slapping them on the wrist would be in interests of a healthier partnership.

As for the border treaty, I'll remind you again that they said they were playing as if it was ratified, not that they assumed it already was.

You'll have to explain to me your logic on this one. Making decisions "as if" something is ratified is sometimes inexcusable. If the U.S. bombs Iraq, can they say they're just behaving "as if" they had U.N. approval? Similarly, founding a city "as if" a border treaty had been ratified is not an acceptable course of action, given that the treaty may have been altered.

They did take advantage of the absence of a particular defined border to put Dissidentville in a place I'd proposed in a treaty version that I later told them our team had rejected, but their behavior was still consistent with assuming that some version of the border treaty would be ratified.

Hm, so they pick and choose which proposals and parts of proposals they want to ratify? Nice partnership.

I would consider us morally obligated to make sure that at the time we back out, Vox has gotten at least as much out of the deal as we have, preferably a little more.

A little more, because we owe them something? I like to be friends as much as the next guy, but in this game Vox is a tool, not a buddy.


Dominae

[Harovan]

I'm ready now to play the turn. Sorry for the delay, I don't feel very well. What exactly am I supposed to do with the tech offer? It seems, the consensus was, that we decline it, send a note why, and ask them to reoffer it next turn.

Right?

[Dominae]

Yes.