DIPLO: Comments on Lux contact log

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae
I'm not sure what Trip means myself, or what you're implying by saying that his team is one of the weakest? Are they using wide spacing? This would mean that their score should be actually higher. Or are they using close spacing? This would mean their score is low (as it should be), but then they're tougher opponents.


Dominae

Right, I was overstating that. What has led me to that is I think roleplay spoke of lux in a negative manner.

And then, Trips language indicated that they had made errors in the game that are costly. Of course, Trip could have planted that info to throw us off...

[nbarclay]

From Lux's score, either they're using very tight city spacing or they're in pretty sad shape (or both).

[Shiber]

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I wouldn't want to underestimate Lux and its members, but I am getting the impression that Trip is a bit opportunistic an somewhat short-sighted, so he certainly won't use tight spacing. That is, if he is the one who calls the shots in Lux.
In any case, I tend to believe that Lux has had a rough starting location because of their capital's rank in the top 5 cities list from the beginning of the game up until now.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Dominae
I'm not sure what Trip means myself, or what you're implying by saying that his team is one of the weakest? Are they using wide spacing? This would mean that their score should be actually higher. Or are they using close spacing? This would mean their score is low (as it should be), but then they're tougher opponents.


Dominae

Actually not. 4 spacing means you do not get the free link tiles automatically. You have to wait for a temple/library and expanded borders to fill in the gaps. This leads to a score lower than the civ that uses 3 spacing and gets many tiles added to territory score before your borders expand.

It also indicates a smaller number of cities overall if the gap gets too big, and lack of cultural improvements.

[nbarclay]

I'll agree that there are times when looser spacing results in a lower score than a little bit tigher spacing would, but for Lux to have a competitive number of cities, they would have to be spacing things so tight that their additional cities have significant overlap with their capital and/or other cities. Their score is about the same as Vox's, and Vox's second city just has one tile between it and the capital if I recall what they said correctly.

[notyoueither]

btw, Lego most likely built a Temple right off. I have seen that have a large impact on score early.

[nbarclay]

The big thing a temple does is to add a third ring around the capital a lot earlier than would happen otherwise. That's the equivalent of well over a newly built 9-tile city. I'm also sort of inclined to bet Lego has built a temple in at least one other city, but it could just be that they have the food bonuses for some truly phenominal REXing. And I'd definitely guess they're going with a loose city pattern. Oh, I'm also well over 90% sure Lego got a luxury hooked up very early.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Actually not. 4 spacing means you do not get the free link tiles automatically. You have to wait for a temple/library and expanded borders to fill in the gaps. This leads to a score lower than the civ that uses 3 spacing and gets many tiles added to territory score before your borders expand.

It also indicates a smaller number of cities overall if the gap gets too big, and lack of cultural improvements.

True, with one exception (and we're in this exception right now): the capital doesn't need temples for border expansions, so 4 spacing from the capital will give most territory fast. After they need to settle cities farther away, the score deminishes, of course.

I'm not sure how to interpret Trip's comment: if they are going for good city sites, and ignore where their borders are going to be, they aren't on a tight city spacing scheme... it's an interesting, but kind of ambiguous message.

I don't have access to screenies, but I thought Lego only recently overtook EotS on the F11 list. The moment they build a temple, their culture would have risen, so I think that was only done recently, and certainly not from the start... I too think a lux was connected very early, but not the temple

DeepO
DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

does Lux have any techs that we don't have? i.e. warrior code or something else?

As they are soon to be extinct, we might be able to buy stuff off them for a low low price. Of course, we would have to get contact via vox first, correct? It would be nice to get the contact soon so that we can see their power graph, before they are eliminated, just for curiosity sake.

[asleepathewheel]

Can workers be transferred overseas when we don't yet have galleys?

If so, perhaps if lux is really going down, they would give us some workers, rather than let them fall into the hands of nd or gow

[Dominae]

Time to bump this thread (momentarily...).

Here's a summary of the big long chat Tuesday between Trip of Lux Invicta and notyoueither, nbarclay, Theseus and Dominae of Gathering Storm (us).

1. Lux wants to get off the island as quickly as possible. They plan to build a Galley, a Settler and 1 Spearmen. Lux apparently has a promising location lined up for their second capital relocation, but we were not privvy to the exact spot.

2. Lux is working with ~170 gold now. Apparently Vox has this sum, but Lux appears to be trading with it nonetheless.

3. Lux has some units left on their original continent. These are currently "hiding" until Lux finds a suitable opportunity. We do not know exactly how big this guerrila force actually is.

3. Neu Demogyptica currently has 9 Swordsmen, is in the middle of the continent. They are slowly becoming the dominant force.

4. The following terms were agreed upon during Lux's stay on our island:

a) Lux will move no unit more than 1 tile from Portia. That means adjacent.

b) Portia will be left ungarrisoned so that we can verify their forces.

c) Vox will be limited to one defensive unit in your territory, plus however many workers they see fit to send.

d) Lux will not sail South from Portia. Lux will not approach the Southern lands from another direction.

e) Writing and Map Making will be purchased from Gathering Storm for 150 gold and the Lux map. Lux will not resell Writing and Map Making to any other civ.


That's pretty much the gist of it.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Dominae, are you sure on #2? As I read from the thread, Lux has 170 gold, and already paid Vox. Given the information from Vox, we could deduce that Vox has Lux's money, but it could very well be that Lux started off with 320 gold (not that extravagant if they were able to save cash for 20+ turns.)

DeepO

[Dominae]

Well, I'm sure that's what was said in the discussion. I guess the matter of the 150 gold requires some discussion...As far as I can tell, Trip lied by us about this.


Dominae

[DeepO]

I'm not sure that Trip lied to us, it might be he lied to Vox. The least we can say is that there is some kind of misunderstanding: either we are overanalysing the log (of a chat, which is inherently an informal communication), or something went wrong in the communication between Lux and Vox.

Also, there were a lot of 'sorry, can't detail that' responses of Trip to our questions, this could be something like that. But I never would deduce from Lux's log that Vox currently has our money, and we should trade with Vox for it... I seriously thought that no matter the deal between Vox and Lux, GS and Lux could get a separate deal.

DeepO

[Dominae]

DeepO, I was at the chat, and it was very clear that we would be exchaning Writing and Map Making for 150 gold and Lux's World Map. That means that Lux needs to come up with that much gold by the time we get Map Making. If Vox is "borrowing" that amount, it is not our problem, IMO.


Dominae