Turn 48, 1870 BC

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by nbarclay


I know they said Lux was ready to give them a good deal on Alphabet, but I don't recall anything about Lux's already having Writing too. Then again, it's not impossible that I might have forgotten.

I scanned the vox logs and found this from JM, p. 3 one of the first posts:

Originally posted by jon miller
they have contact with many people, and have way more techs than either of us (including writing and the like)

I took that to mean Lux, but it could be DG.

Or more likely, again, Vox didn't know what they were talking about.

[Theseus]

No lies... let's start off by building the Colossus as a pre-build / 'mask'.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
No lies... let's start off by building the Colossus as a pre-build / 'mask'.

Parent: "Where are you going?"

Daughter: "I'm going to the Library."

Then the daughter goes to the library for a few minutes, and from there to a movie she knows her parents would never let her watch if they knew. Does the fact that she went to the library on the way make her not a liar? And even if you're willing to let her off the hook on technical grounds, how is what she did any different morally, or in terms of how it will affect her relationship with her parents if they find out?

I don't buy the idea that starting the Colossus as a prebuild would make a claim that that's what we're building not a lie. It would be excellent misdirection if all other civs know is what they see on F7, but telling another civ flat-out that that's what we're building crosses the line as far as I'm concerned.

Nathan

[Shiber]

We tell them that we're building a wonder, not telling them which, and offer them the workers deal. We start building The Colossus.
Many turns later, Vox checks their F7 screen and notices that we've switched to the Great Library. "Why have you lied to us?" asks Vox. "We did not lie." we answer, "First, we did not tell you which wonder we were building. It is you who have made the false assumption that we were aiming at The Colossus out of a source which you must realize is undependable. Second, we did not switch builds to deceive you, we switched builds to deceive other civs which may, as far as we know, be building the GL themselves."
They have no basis for accusing us of lying.

Nathan, IMHO the example that you've given is not a complete analogy to our case. In our case, the daughter does not tell the parent that she's going to the library. When the parent looks out the window, he sees her walking in the direction of the library and falsely assumes that she's going to the library. Shortly after she passes the corner and disappears from his sight, she takes a turn and walks in the direction of the museum instead.
The "forbidden movie" is not an analogy to the GL. In your case, the parent would not want his child to go to the forbidden movie, but in our case, while Vox might not be so happy realizing that we're really going for the GL, they have no authority over us, unlike the parent.

[nbarclay]

As long as we don't say what wonder we're building, we would also have the additional defense that we couldn't even start the Great Library until we have Literature, and therefore had to use something as a prebuild. That's standard Civ 3 strategy. (Although in regard to hiding our strategy from other civs, starting off with a palace prebuild would be even more effective.) The question is, would Vox be willing to give up two workers now in exchange for such a limited and distant payoff?

In regard to the analogy, one important thing to understand about analogies is that they focus on similarities between issues and may completely ignore differences that are not relevant to the analogy's point. The reason I picked a movie the parents would not approve of as the destination was not that going to a museum or a friend's house would make the daughter's words any less a lie, but rather to provide a plausible reason why the daughter might lie to begin with. (Of course a lot does depend on a person's attitude about lies. Personally, I detest them no matter what the reason, but I recognize that many others view "white lies" as a normal and harmless part of life.)

[Shiber]

Perhaps a palace prebuild is the way to go. That way, noone but Vox, and whoever Vox tells this to, will know that we are building a wonder.

Originally posted by nbarclay
The question is, would Vox be willing to give up two workers now in exchange for such a limited and distant payoff?

There's one way to find out. Ask them.

In regard to the analogy, one important thing to understand about analogies is that they focus on similarities between issues and may completely ignore differences that are not relevant to the analogy's point. The reason I picked a movie the parents would not approve of as the destination was not that going to a museum or a friend's house would make the daughter's words any less a lie, but rather to provide a plausible reason why the daughter might lie to begin with. (Of course a lot does depend on a person's attitude about lies. Personally, I detest them no matter what the reason, but I recognize that many others view "white lies" as a normal and harmless part of life.)

I'm sorry about that, I was niggling.
And yeah, I hate liars too. I'm really a very honest person in real life.

[DeepO]

Of course a palace is the only possible prebuild, we don't want to advertise to the world that we're safe enough to build a wonder. I've been talking with RPG at the tone of 'that unstable Vox that is bothering us', they would immediately see through that, and assume we have a long term relation with them.

I'm not saying that we have to wait indefinately to change from the palace to the GL, and we maybe can switch to the pyramids some 10 turns before we would reach the palace (which will be at 300 shields, pyramids and GL at 400) to further compromise intelligence reports from other teams. But there is no way we start on the Collosus now...

DeepO

[Shiber]

Agreed.
Good point regarding RP.

[zeit]

Ah, i just feel good when i think of how everyone will see us as the masters of this land- and as for Vox- "well, there is that one more team down there, but nothing too important..."

For now, we have to manuever ourselves to this position of superiority, but remember to bind Vox to us before this happens, so they won't feel so bad about it...


the combined Great Li--- oops, i meant Great Wonder project as well as a trade partnership will surely help us achieve that.

[Harovan]

Turn arrived.

EotS is struck by disease again. There go all sophisticated plans.

Team Scores:

84 (+2) Gathering Storm
93 (+2) Demogyptica
73 (+1) Glory of War
90 (+1) Role Play
70 (+1) Vox Controli
69 (+1) Lux Invicta
102 (+3) Legoland

[Harovan]

EotS needs new orders.

It has zero shields and four food in the box. To set it at 3 floodplains would be pointless. Disease will strike again next turn.

[Arrian]

GODDAMNIT! That sucks.

I hate floodplains. Hate 'em!

-Arrian

[zeit]

[Artificial voice]
In the event of disease spreading in the city- it is important to remain calm, prepare yourself for another spreading the turn after, and notify your nearest Economic scholia in order to change worker allocation for your city
[/AV]

Seriously, this really sucks, does that mean we'll take another turn (or more) for writing?

Well, think of it this way: we have to get disease, otherwise it won't be fair...

[Shiber]

God is a Vox (as in "God is a Woman/DJ/whatever").
Oh well. Just look at the bright side - all the other teams will think that we're building lots of workers unsually fast when we're just getting struck by disease.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
Ah, i just feel good when i think of how everyone will see us as the masters of this land

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
EotS is struck by disease again. There go all sophisticated plans.

"Hybris"... thanks Zeit!
j/k

Well, at least we didn't get attacked by barbarians while unprepared and had to poprush a defender like what happened to Legoland...
Heck, what am I saying?! As if we need to give ourselves an "Evil Eye" in addition to our standard curses.

Anyway, the point is, we get our share of good luck and bad luck. So far we got a great start, 2 luxes and 2 resources, a free settler, a stupid and weak neighbor and luck with barbarians, versus getting struck by disease four times (counting next turn). I'd say that so far, lady luck was in our favor, give or take an instance or two.