Beyond Alphabet

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Once we start working on Map Making, any hope Vox has of selling us contact is probably gone. (And we can spell that out explicitly if they get fussy with us.)

I think that's a good threat, but it might not come out in the execution. I would rather trade for contacts ASAP instead of waiting to get MapMaking, divert some resources to build a boat, and wait to actually contact another civ (what is that, like 30 turns from when we begin researching Map Making?...admittedly a slightly pessimistic estimate).

We're not stupid AIs (I'm not!) that will trade Contacts when contact is inevitable. In fact, we're smart enough to figure out when it is worth it, and when it is not. Up until our boat is happily about half way up the coast (East, presumably), I think getting their contacts is a smart move.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Wow, no WW. Not reason at all for Monarchy, then (well, MP happiness bonus, but we appear to be on chieftain with 2 local luxury supplies, hah!).

I say we go for Writing next, attempting to work out another trade deal with Vox including contact. If that fails, after Writing we can research Mapmaking (by that point we will be in a better position to actually order a city to build a galley).

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Arrian
Wow, no WW. Not reason at all for Monarchy, then (well, MP happiness bonus, but we appear to be on chieftain with 2 local luxury supplies, hah!).

I have yet to see a situation where Monarchy+MPs makes more sense than Republic+Lux Slider.

[Dominae]

Extended wars are a great reason to use Monarchy. My AU202 game was a good example of this.

Nathan, the way you play the game involves focusing on economy and building up overwhelming force. When you finally attack, the wars are usually over in short order, so you do not have to deal with WW. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

But generally, it is very possible to run into WW problems when in Republic, especially if the AI is of the "Killer" variant. Even if you run up against a strong AI and the Luxury slider is not more help, it is all too easy to sign a peace treat and avoid the problem. I imagine this is not possible in MP. Thus, if WW were a factor, I believe Monarchy would be a very good option.

Edit: Hm, I did not address your main point. Basically I'm arguing that Military Police and Monarchy would be very useful in MP, where you need to defend your cities better already, and WW would likely be a major factor (if it were to, in fact, exist).


Dominae

[nbarclay]

I was referring specifically to the context of no war weariness. Change the balance to Republic + Luxury Slider - War Weariness vs. Monarchy + MPs, or even vs. Monarchy without MPs, and I'll certainly agree that there are times when Monarchy is vastly superior.

You're right about what most of my wars are like. But I recall a certain CivFanatics GOTM where I felt a need to take out a larger Japan that had similarly advanced units (late ancient era) and roughly equal culture on a large map with relatively few civs. That was a slugging match on a grand scale, and I was in Monarchy long before it was over.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but I have an idea which I'd like to hear some feedback about:

RP said earlier that they might send a galley our way. Perhaps we could offer to trade them writing in exchange for all of their contacts and some gold as soon as they meet with us. In fact, I think we should hammer out a trade deal such as this as soon as possible and send it to RP, so that they'll be more eager to send a galley our way and establish contact with us faster than they would otherwise.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but I have an idea which I'd like to hear some feedback about:

RP said earlier that they might send a galley our way. Perhaps we could offer to trade them writing in exchange for all of their contacts and some gold as soon as they meet with us. In fact, I think we should hammer out a trade deal such as this as soon as possible and send it to RP, so that they'll be more eager to send a galley our way and establish contact with us faster than they would otherwise.

Check the tech tree. They have to get Writing before they can get Map Making and build galleys. (Of course if I recall correctly, RP is Commercial and therefore started with Alphabet, which means they might have Writing and be working on Map Making by now.)

But we might be able to swing a trade with them involving Map Making and our next research project past Writing. And the prospect of a RP galley looking for us to establish contact might provide additional leverage with Vox in contact negotiations. Edit: and if they're focusing so much on galleys, we may catch them light on military techs, which might give us something we could trade for contacts. Then again, they may be getting all the military techs they have a use for from tech deals closer to home.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Check the tech tree. They have to get Writing before they can get Map Making and build galleys. (Of course if I recall correctly, RP is Commercial and therefore started with Alphabet, which means they might have Writing and be working on Map Making by now.)

I'm so stupid

[nbarclay]

In case anyone misses it, I checked the science advisor on the turn I just finished playing and he says we're backward. That means we'll probably be playing catch-up on tech for a while, although when we get Alphabet and (presumably) trade it for Iron Working, that should go a long way toward closing the gap. We need to keep in mind that the civs on the main continent are probably somewhat ahead of us, though.

Nathan

[Shiber]

From my experience, being two techs behind in the ancient age is often enough to be called backward by the science guy.

Originally posted by nbarclay
We need to keep in mind that the civs on the main continent are probably somewhat ahead of us, though.

Not to mention that they might have gotten several techs from goodie huts and then traded them around, while we only got one hut which contained a settler (our crazy luck).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
From my experience, being two techs behind in the ancient age is often enough to be called backward by the science guy.

If that's true, we might be back on par (or at least very close to it) when (and assuming) the Alphabet for Iron Working deal goes through.

Not to mention that they might have gotten several techs from goodie huts and then traded them around, while we only got one hut which contained a settler (our crazy luck).

The only way they'd get very far from huts is if they'd already done a fair amount of trading before popping the last huts. Huts in Civ 3 (in stark contrast with the CTP games) yield the lowest-value tech that you have the prerequisites for and aren't already researching, so until civs start trading, they're likely to get stuff others already have (Mysticism being the most notable exception, but it's cheaper than Alphabet).

[Shiber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If that's true, we might be back on par (or at least very close to it) when (and assuming) the Alphabet for Iron Working deal goes through.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed (which makes typing unbelievably harder, btw).

In the mean time, perhaps there's something we can do to seed distrust between the civs on the main continent, thus slowing down their mutual research and tech trading. Something within the legal boundaries of the game, I mean
Any creative ideas?

[DeepO]

creative ideas to build distrust? Easy... hire the GoW.

DeepO

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Let us build the Colossus to bring wealth into the cities of Aegypt. Our Industrious workers can quickly build roads which will benefit the wonder and its effects.
As for research, I say we head towards the republic.

[alva]

I certainly agree for go to republic ASAP.

re: GOW:
The trouble is besides slower tech, there's nothing to gain from it.

The colossus would be nice... but is it possible?