DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

[Aeson]

I think 23 Immortals is about what we are facing (altogether at this point). My guess as to what they could have reasonably put together by this time was 22, 25 max. That they didn't wait to mass them saves us a huge amount of trouble (like losing everything W of the spinebreaker). For RP, they get to give us information that doesn't help us at all and seem friendly. Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

We still stand to lose Arashi and Monsoon, but against 23 (given that 5-6 of them would be up near the bottleneck at this point) we can probably hold Tempest. At that point we're producing more Pikes/Horses/Med Inf than they can produce Warriors, and it's just a matter of time. On their own Vox can't have enough commerce to keep upgrading more than 1 Warrior per turn, and I very much doubt any of the other civs are willing to fund their war indefinitely (especially if they don't make major gains with the first assault).

GoW and ND both need as much gold as they can get, RP doesn't want to be drained when they are facing war from the north, and Lego seems to want to at least keep a reasonable research rate.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Aeson
I think 23 Immortals is about what we are facing (altogether at this point). My guess as to what they could have reasonably put together by this time was 22, 25 max. That they didn't wait to mass them saves us a huge amount of trouble (like losing everything W of the spinebreaker). For RP, they get to give us information that doesn't help us at all and seem friendly. Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

Would be fun to ask for that screenshot. but they would of course ask for something in return.

Originally posted by Aeson
We still stand to lose Arashi and Monsoon, but against 23 (given that 5-6 of them would be up near the bottleneck at this point) we can probably hold Tempest. At that point we're producing more Pikes/Horses/Med Inf than they can produce Warriors, and it's just a matter of time. On their own Vox can't have enough commerce to keep upgrading more than 1 Warrior per turn, and I very much doubt any of the other civs are willing to fund their war indefinitely (especially if they don't make major gains with the first assault).

I guess it all depends if they strike with that group of 11 or wait a turn to have 15 or two turns to have 20, right? We shall see, we shall see.

Originally posted by Aeson
GoW and ND both need as much gold as they can get, RP doesn't want to be drained when they are facing war from the north, and Lego seems to want to at least keep a reasonable research rate.

Yes, since GoW and ND both have or will have given us 200 gold, they probably wouldn't be able to afford giving cash to Vox. Whicih means...lego or RP. Any coincidence that RP couldn't afford Feudalism when in the same timeframe they are expecting war on their continent?

[Aeson]

The longer they wait the more Pikes we get there though. It works out to be better for them if they hit with all 11 right now, and have the reinforcements cover the wounded. We will have another Pike from Tempest , the Pike from Arashi, catapult from Monsoon (unless we can get into the city view to rush them this turn), and 2 more Med Infantry all coming if they wait a turn.

If all they can add to their stack is 5 Immortals, it doesn't help cover our reinforcements.

[alva]

Let's just go along with it and thank them for the information. Let them think they are making a friend instead of an enemy.

Sure, no need to antagonise them.
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As I have said before, I'm covinced this war is funded by BoB, unless they unite (and even then), they are facing what could be some turbulent times..
Did they encourage Vox and maybe gave them some gold, could be, but none of them are paying 30 or 40 gold gold, just to see us loose, without being certain, they themselves, will gain from it.

[alva]

Any thought's on disclosing some of this info to ND (it wasn't an official PM, so we don't really betray anyone, do we?).

Or could it be trap, or are they even hoping we would

[notyoueither]

I am very glad that they are advancing into blackness and cannot do any kind of planning.

They cannot see the full importance of the Spine Breakers to our situation. They don't know where Hurricane is, let alone how big she is.

Now they can see EotS at size 10 on the F11 screen, and that might just make them decide to go after her with all possible speed.

[DeepO]

I'll write something to them tomorrow (tonight not fresh enough), and indeed, I too would appear to try to be their friends. I would also say that as said, we are anticipating to possibly lose a few cities (we mentioned this before), but that's it. And of course, we will lose more in this war then if allowed to peacefully expand undisturbed, but we simply have not enough land left, they are probably right our continent is the one most cramped for space (I wouldn't tell them we're smaller then them yet).

Further, I'd like to try to find out more about the GoW. I'd like to get some subtle comments in to stear up emotions, they have given me an opening with their comment on GoW diplomacy. Plus, a simple question to ask how large their navy is could also raise some eyebrows, a navy could be used to invade us, but also to pass RPs defenses, or to avoid ND in getting to RP.

Legos: I'm not sure yet. I'm certainly going to mention the pyramids, something along the lines that they may be right in them becoming too powerful. But never appear less then amicable with Lego, lay the initiative on their side.

Also, I was wondering why I now (I got last message 2 hours ago, 5 minutes before posting it on this forum) get a reply to an e-mail 3 days old. Maybe our last chat with Lego had some impact. So... very careful here.

Oh, scorched earth by Vox: we don't mind, let them burn down their own whipped cities if they want to. If they want to pillage improvements, and for each tile lose a unit, that would be superb, actually. Also, I'm sure I'll mention to RP it is strange that Vox has contingency plans for when they need to retreat. They don't seem so sure of theirselves anymore as when they sneak attacked Grog.

Other things they mentioned: they say Bob will be at war within 10 turns of discovering Chivalry. They give a bit of info, I want to pick into that, and ask for more specific things. Right now, they have indeed given us only things we already knew, and in this case, I'll tell them (gently, of course). Specific questions would be if any NAPs are signed to their knowledge, and if they are sure ND is going to take on GoW instead of them.

Also interesting that they admit that once ND is being attacked by GoW, they will move in with their forces. They admit that their opportunists (again nothing new, we certainly would have done the same in their situation).

There may be some more info we could get out of them, I agree it is coloured to say the least, but I doubt they will lie to us directly, so we might use part of it. I would also like us to start to consider each turn what info on our war we give out to other teams, both GoW, Lego and RP are interested, but it would not be a good idea to give different info to all of them, they would certainly start to talk amongst each other to find out what the other have got. Right now, I would simply say that we are starting to see their immortals approaching, and are anxiously waiting to see if our defenses will hold.

BTW, I also think we need to start trying to smalltalk a little with ND, to find out their views, and to let them know that we like them, maybe most of all because they don't start to bullsh!t us each time we talk. Give them some info on the Vox war, I'm sure they'll be interested as well.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I still think we should keep our mouth's closed about just about everything now. Definitely no more trying to play one team off on another... it will almost surely backfire on RP doing so, and has already backfired on us.

[alva]

RE: cities
Do include that they newly build border town (look-outs) and not core cities, we need to be percieved superior (in force) to Vox at all times. If thay think some extra gold might swing the balance, they are gonna be more inclined to do so, when they see us starting to have any doubts.
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I was thinking about contacting ND (just saying hi), but I can't find an angle without making it too obvious.
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I agree with Aeson, there is no real reason to stir up things, something will happen, no matter what we do.
The more neutral, amicable, sincere we look (to all teams), the better.

[notyoueither]

I like the 'dumb' approach.

Please say nothing specific re the defenses holding. See, that might tell them something they don't know. No one yet has a clue that we have a chance to stop Vox dead in their tracks at our borders. Best to keep it that way.

All that should be said re the military situation is something like... We are examining ways to overcome Vox and take the war to their home.

That might work very well. It might make Vox quite nervous when it is passed on, and it will be passed on, I think. It might make Vox pull back or hold back some forces.

[DeepO]

You have a point, Aeson. I just read your post in the turn thread, and I agree. However shutting up completely is not going to do us any good, as it also was one of the reasons why we were attacked by Vox (driven by other teams, probably). We need to keep some diplomatic continuity going, although of course nobody forces us to chat each day

DeepO

[DeepO]

nye: I was not going to tell them we are planning to keep all of Vox's forces out of our territory, defending the one entry point into our belly (like GK said).

I just realised something: we have given Vox a description of our lands, so they aren't exactly fighting into the lands here. That belly comment sounds suspicously as coming from someone, knowing that that mountain ridge is indeed aimed at our belly. RP wouldn't have been handed that description of ourse, would it?

Alva: the last deal should give you an point where you can simply say hi to ND: simply thank them for their money, and mention that, BTW, both GoW and RP seem to be specially interested in our relation with Vox. Ask them about chivalry, perhaps. Any information is okay, without mentioning anything real to them.
But as we haven't mentioned anything specific to them (to all the other teams we have), we should give them some update, or they only have the information in the public forum to go on. I wouldn't mind to tell them (nor anyone else, because the rest have realized it by now), that Grog saved the day, and that slaughtering him has given us enough time to rush our defenses, hopefully good enough defenses.

DeepO

[alva]

Hmm, not bad. Will have to wait until tomorrow though, havn't slept for some 30 odd hours..

If someone else would be bored of course, go right ahead

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by DeepO
nye: I was not going to tell them we are planning to keep all of Vox's forces out of our territory, defending the one entry point into our belly (like GK said).

I just realised something: we have given Vox a description of our lands, so they aren't exactly fighting into the lands here. That belly comment sounds suspicously as coming from someone, knowing that that mountain ridge is indeed aimed at our belly. RP wouldn't have been handed that description of ourse, would it?

Excellent observation. Just goes to show how much care should be taken regarding what seem like casual statements.

OK. The belly. Hmmm. That could also mean an attempt to go down the 'gullet' between the ranges straight at EotS.

OTOH, saying something like 'hoping defences hold' tells them something about our outlook, and hense gives a clue about our plans. Possibly.

[asleepathewheel]

Should we offer them Feudalism again?

Maybe offer it for 150 or something, since a couple turns later.

Play it like we are desperate for the cash.