DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

[DeepO]

RP refused to buy Feud from us, saying they already got an offer from GoW to get it once cleared, and at 75 gold. I told them that we will try to meet that price at that time, but have no time for those discussions now (I hate it when they would be able to tell our price to GoW, asking them to underbid, and tell that price to us again.)

I wouldn't mind telling GF that RP is happily setting our two teams up against each other, and try to agree on a secret trade. Instead of trying to outbid each others, we could simply say: "No, get it for 75 gold from GoW then", and split the profit between GoW and us. We couldn't get more then 40 gold out of the deal anyway, with a tech 10 turns old.

DeepO

[Aeson]

Good idea.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by DeepO
RP refused to buy Feud from us, saying they already got an offer from GoW to get it once cleared, and at 75 gold. I told them that we will try to meet that price at that time, but have no time for those discussions now (I hate it when they would be able to tell our price to GoW, asking them to underbid, and tell that price to us again.)

Hmm, I wonder where the RP gold could have gone. Hmm.

Originally posted by DeepO
I wouldn't mind telling GF that RP is happily setting our two teams up against each other, and try to agree on a secret trade. Instead of trying to outbid each others, we could simply say: "No, get it for 75 gold from GoW then", and split the profit between GoW and us. We couldn't get more then 40 gold out of the deal anyway, with a tech 10 turns old.

DeepO

Good idea letting GF know whats going on, though I'm sure he already knows. If they want to go ten turns without Feu, then thats fine. I hope ND and GoW take the opportunity to take them out in the interim.

[Aeson]

Didn't RP say that GoW wanted Monarchy too? So is that price 75g + Monarchy, or just 75g?

If we split profits with GoW, we need to know if Monarchy would be coming our way too (HG is somewhat worthwhile to build if we don't have anything else to do).

[DeepO]

It could be a total bogus price, to start us first at underbidding. Maybe GoW hasn't contacted them at all, or they did, but didn't mention their offer.

First step would be to mention to GF in a next chat or so that RP is telling us the deal, plus the price, and ask for confirmation. If GF agrees (and we should make clear that it is certainly no problem to us, no hard feelings, and no offensive tone of voice), we can proceed, asking them for a deal. We'll know then what they are going to get, so we can start negotiating from there onwards. E.g. monarchy from GoW would be nice already, but if that's not possible, another 30 gold would be nice too. I don't think we will be able sell it to RP, as they will always try to use our offer to get a better price elsewhere. It may be clear by now that they do not want to further strengthen us, and in fact will try their best to block our progress as much as possible. It's stupid, because if they would ensure our friendship, they could use that to conquer Bob after the riders have swarmed.

DeepO

[alva]

We really need to put loger NDA to tech trade. It has to remain worthwile researching it. Middleage is very suited for this IMHO..

[DeepO]

I was thinking the same thing. 10 turns is not even enough, each monopoly we get puts only 10 turns difference between those who get the tech from us, and those who don't.

I was thinking, would it be an idea to ask for increasing NDAs? Say next tech 12 turns, the one after that 14, etc.

DeepO

[alva]

Even longer IMO, they need to feel 'pressured' to buy it from us, as to not get left behind.
Especially with war tech.
I doubt RP would be willing to wait 20 turns to get it from GoW, that would either force them to buy it from us, or doing the research themselves...

[DeepO]

Yes, but we can't ask 20 turns immediately, if we don't want to be faced by a trade embargo by everyone. If we don't have Lego's full support, that is becoming our biggest risk: being left out of the tech race. So building it up easily will at first leave some the teams without cash 10 turns behind (RP now), but with good prospects to cath up later. By gradually increasing, they do not see the moment exactly where it would become too costly for them to wait, and buy it at open market prices.

One of the other problems here is that everybody know realizes that GS is taking advantage of a tech monopoly. Vox is not getting Feud, while all other teams can get it. We are 'abusing' a monopoly, which will mean that in the future, teams will grow wary of giving us such a monopoly. Right now, everything is fine, as we can outresearch any other team, but that might change... too long NDAs might not be the best for us, because we would become known as monopolists. And who likes those.

DeepO

[Aeson]

Lets save longer NDA's for the next tech. Education (if we can get Theology from Lego) would be a good one to put a long NDA on. That keeps other teams from Universities for longer, widening the research gap, and they fall farther behind.

Having RP and Lego call our NDA's and wait might be a good thing for us in the long run if we progressively make them longer. It slows down overall tech rate, and gives us more and more advantage for each new tech.

[DeepO]

Certainly we are talking here about future techs, not the current one! But yes, Education sounds a very good tech to do it with, even better then the obvious military ones. The military ones aren't going to be researched by us alone, if they are critical (like Chivalry is for both GoW and ND, which they will get themselves most likely), but education might be if we can arrange something with Lego. Bob will hopefully be too busy fighting wars.

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

RP's latest, 4/15? message:

Another example of them "giving" us information.

1. They've seen 23 immortals-

-Vox is giving them screenshots of their army?



2. Vox is going to use a scorched earth policy while retreating?

-duh, and that is probably better for us if they abandon their own cities, won't have to deal with the whipped citizens.

3. Bob information-

Is this news? Note all of the geographical information. They surely know that we have their map. Another instance of a lot of detail while little new substance. Right out of Togas' handbook from the ISDG.

My favorite was this quote: "the general consensus is that in the initial rush, they will punch deep into your territory. Weather or not they can maintain their momentum after punching their spearhead into your belly is what will determine the war."

not a very neutral statement, eh? Seems to betray their true feelings, I would say. Won't they be in for a shock when they realize that Vox has been stopped at the gates of, not the capitol, but the border town Arashi. Oh, its on a hill, holy sh!t, that wasn't planned for. Pikes, wtf. ROFLMAO.

[alva]

On the other hand, the info is reasonable with what we know/anticipate.
-
I think teams are starting to doubt, Vox will win and are thus trying to appear as neutral as possible.
-
Don't forget that with communications the militairy advisor can give a very misleading picture
ex:
Vox opens the militairy advisor sees we are weak and so is GoW, then they ask GoW to see how they compare to us. Now if they are also strong compared to us, that's a eygh 'doubleweak' .

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by alva
On the other hand, the info is reasonable with what we know/anticipate.

Sure its reasonable, they are trying to appear like they are giving us information, be our buddies instead of our brutus. But they also haven't told us something we didn't already know, you know? the 23 immortals, verify? please send the screenie along if you are serious

Originally posted by alva
-
I think teams are starting to doubt, Vox will win and are thus trying to appear as neutral as possible.
-
Don't forget that with communications the militairy advisor can give a very misleading picture
ex:
Vox opens the militairy advisor sees we are weak and so is GoW, then they ask GoW to see how they compare to us. Now if they are also strong compared to us, that's a eygh 'doubleweak' .

good points. I think we are what, average now with other teams other than vox?

[Aeson]

As for RP's map analysis, it's pretty well founded.

(using likely peaceful borders)

203 tiles on our continent
683 tiles total on BOB

265 tiles from RP's northern border south on BOB
231 tiles north of RP's border to south of GoW's for ND
187 tiles left for GoW on BOB

18 tiles on baby BOB

~1350 total land tiles on a 100x100 map at 70% water.
904 total land tiles on BOB, baby BOB, and our continent.

Leaves 446 tiles for Lego? They will be rather large... but no larger than either of the civs on BOB if it comes down to 2.

We and Vox of course are left to fight over a continent that would lose out in the end (on it's own) however it plays out.