Announcement

**Dominae** · February 5, 2003, 14:33

BigFurryMonster wrote on February 5:

Hello Dominae!

Nice to meet you, albeit not in the game itself.

To answer your questions:

We have contacts with several civs on our island. In fact, it is rather crowded here. GoW, ND and RP are all neighbours of us.

In the tech tree, we'll soon be acquiring Writing and Mathematics. Let me know if these techs are of interest to you and if you have anything to trade.

I cannot say anything about luxuries. Some are in lands between civs, and are not divided yet. Others are a national secret :-)
We'll let you know as soon we have anything to trade, though.

Our military plans are to defend ourselves when we are attacked. Tension is high here, but we are well equipped. On defense, but also on offense if that may become necessary.

We would very much be interested in a partnership. We will see if we can buy Contact with you from Vox (as soon as either party has Writing). Then we can open up trade relations!

We have Barbarians here, too. Not for long, though.

BFM of Lux

**notyoueither** · February 19, 2003, 04:21

I must be a curse. People want to chat with me about various things. Some of them come back to this game. I will post whatever logs there are of those chats so that we all know what has gone on.

nye says: we've found at gs that most all decsions can be made between turns. leaving the player to only report what happened. wars would be different though.

Trip says: most of the time, yes

nye says: good idea to keep w1 close to home for a bit.

Trip says: Lux could have destroyed ND and GoW within the first 15 turns
Trip says: including an extra ND settler

nye says: why did you not?

Trip says: I came to have fun
Trip says: not ransack the continent
Trip says:

nye says: i'd heard that you were near an unprotected GoW capitol.

Trip says: and ND
Trip says: and an undefended ND settler

nye says: but now alas...

Trip says: things will work out one way or another
Trip says: and I mean that too
Trip says: you'll find out later though

nye says: excellent. it would be good if things are not so cut and dried as they are being presented.

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:25

feb 24 full log

Session Start: Mon Feb 24 19:32:59 2003
Session Ident: #planning
[19:32] * Now talking in #planning
[19:33] * Trip has joined #planning
[19:34] {nye_Gone> waiting for Dominae
[19:35] {nye_Gone> best not to discuss the ISDG. Sir Ralph (andf others?) will have access to this log.
[19:35] {Trip> hehe
[19:35] {Trip> okay
[19:37] * Dominae has joined #planning
[19:37] {Dominae> Hiya Trip.
[19:37] {Dominae> What are *you* doing here?
[19:37] {Dominae> ;-)
[19:38] {Trip> heya Dominae
[19:38] {Trip> just plotting my takeover of the interior department ;-)
[19:38] {Trip> I mean, err
[19:38] {nye_Gone> hi Dominae.
[19:38] {Dominae> Guess nye's not gone.
[19:38] {Trip> only in spirit
[19:38] {Dominae> Hey nye.
[19:38] {Trip> :Þ
[19:39] {Dominae> Just finishing up a proof here for school...
[19:39] {nye_Gone> i am disguised so that people don't chat me up when I am not paying attention.
[19:39] {Trip> proof for what?

[19:39] {Dominae> Data compression.
[19:39] {Trip> ahhh...
[19:39] {Trip> I've got discrete structures to do
[19:40] {Dominae> Much better than continuous ones.
[19:40] {Trip> the class is the devil, I'm telling you :Þ
[19:40] {nye_Gone> set +o trip
[19:40] {nye_Gone> damn. didn't work.
[19:40] {Trip> /mode #planning +o Trip
[19:40] {Trip>

[19:40] * nye_Gone sets mode: +o Trip
[19:41] {Trip> hehe
[19:41] {Trip> thanks
[19:41] {Dominae> Trip, what happened on the mainland? I would like to hear your version (what I've heard is mostly taunts on the Intersite forum...).
[19:41] {Trip> ND knew it was in a jam
[19:41] {Trip> 3 Poly civs surrounding it
[19:41] {Trip> found an opportunity to attack
[19:41] * nye_Gone sets mode: +o Dominae
[19:41] {Trip> so they did, about 10 turns before we expected
[19:41] * Trip sets mode: +nips
[19:41] {Trip> overran us for the most part
[19:42] {Trip> GoW joined in when they saw an opportunity
[19:42] {Dominae> Were all those civs plotting against them, or did they just have no room?
[19:42] {Trip> using a treaty (which was really never agreed to) as a casus belli
[19:42] {Trip> they didn't have any room, and they knew their opportunity had arrived
[19:42] {Dominae> Why was Lux the target?
[19:42] {Trip> while war planning certainly crossed the minds of the other continental powers, only ND was ready to enact such a strategy
[19:42] {Trip> Lux was closest, and gave the easiest reasoning for war
[19:43] {Dominae> Which was?
[19:43] {Trip> i.e. a border infraction while scouting, moving units near the border, etc.
[19:43] {Dominae> Ah.
[19:43] {Trip> despite the fact they had an army bigger than that of the rest of the continent, they felt "threatened" ;-)
[19:43] {Dominae> What did ND show up with, Swords, Horses (Archers)?
[19:43] {nye_Gone> so, you are totally gone from the continent?
[19:43] {Trip> Swords
[19:43] {Trip> and many of them
[19:43] {Trip> they're up to 8 or 9 now
[19:43] {Dominae> Where did they get all the money?
[19:43] {Trip> over half of them veterans
[19:44] {Trip> they are expansionist
[19:44] {Trip> got lots of free techs
[19:44] {Trip> a free settler, gold
[19:44] {Trip> etc.
[19:44] {Dominae> The continent is big enough for an expansionist civ to get rich?
[19:44] {Trip> NYE: our permanent holdings on the continent have been eliminated
[19:44] {Trip> we have units waiting to wreak havoc though
[19:44] {Trip> the continent is quite big
[19:44] {nye_Gone> heh heh
[19:44] {Trip> GoW, Lux and ND bunched up in the north, above the jungle
[19:45] {Trip> Roleplay with the entire southern half to themselves
[19:45] {Dominae> So, your 2-3 Horsemen took refuge in the jungles or something? ;-)
[19:45] {Trip> our units are busy wandering around, outside of sight ;-)
[19:45] {Dominae> Any Settlers among those?
[19:46] {Trip> they did a good job in maneuvering
[19:46] {Dominae> What's +o, by the way?
[19:46] {Trip> they had a settler pinned within 2 moves of destruction
[19:46] {Trip> I was quite impressed with their tactics
[19:46] {Trip> +o means operator status
[19:46] {Trip> i.e. mod
[19:46] {Dominae> Woo-hoo.
[19:46] {nye_Gone> did the settler escape?
[19:46] {Dominae> So did you lose that Settler?
[19:46] {Dominae> ;-)
[19:47] {Trip> we destroyed it ourselves
[19:47] {nye_Gone> makes sense
[19:47] {Dominae> How awful!
[19:47] {Trip> hehe
[19:47] {Trip> neither GoW nor ND has captured a city, worker or settler
[19:47] {Trip> :Þ
[19:47] {Trip> Lux knows which battles to fight
[19:47] {Trip> unfortunately, none of them were favorable to us
[19:47] {Dominae> And now you're among us.
[19:47] {nye_Gone> there are some among us who would name you honourary Russians ;-)
[19:47] {Trip> without all the land ;-)
[19:47] {Trip> hehe
[19:48] {Trip> yes Dominae
[19:48] {Trip> we have taken temporary residence on your continent
[19:48] {nye_Gone> yes, that has caused a bit of a stir.
[19:48] {Dominae> How temporary? You plan to build a boat and find some unexplored continent?
[19:48] {Trip> Dominae: something like that
[19:49] {Dominae> That's a little vague.
[19:50] {Dominae> (Dominae has apparently made an enemy...)
[19:50] {Dominae>

[19:50] {Trip> LoL
[19:50] {Trip> most details are either classified or being worked out, at the moment ;-)
[19:50] {Dominae> Ah.
[19:50] {nye_Gone> Trip, we have heard various things and many of us are understandably curious exactly what is going on.
[19:50] {Trip> however, you need not fear our permanent presence on the continent
[19:51] {Trip> NYE: shoot some questions this way, I'll answer them the best I can (and am allowed to)
[19:51] {Dominae> Did Vox offer you the city? And if so, did they mention anything about us?
[19:51] {Dominae> (Sorry to cut in...I'll give nye the floor after this one).
[19:51] {nye_Gone> k Dominae
[19:51] {Trip> Dominae: we worked out a deal with Vox for the city
[19:52] {Trip> they said that you did not object
[19:52] {Trip> they gave us strict guidelines though, as they explained how you have a border treaty
[19:52] {Trip> we have no intentions of violating it, so do not fear
[19:52] {nye_Gone> can you tell us what those guidelines were that they gabe you?
[19:53] {nye_Gone> *gave
[19:53] {Trip> do not buil cities ;-)
[19:53] {Trip> build
[19:53] {nye_Gone> and...
[19:54] {Trip> basically keep to our city until we're done with it
[19:54] {Trip> don't cause trouble
[19:54] {Trip> that kind of thing
[19:54] {nye_Gone> that is it? 2 rules?
[19:54] {Trip> regarding our behavior, basically
[19:54] {nye_Gone> ok.
[19:55] {nye_Gone> Dominae, were your questions answered?
[19:55] {Trip> Lux is responsible, we know how to manage ourselves ;-)
[19:55] {Dominae> Yep, but there's a whole bunch more!
[19:55] {nye_Gone> ok. you go.
[19:55] {Dominae> How much gold did you give Vox?
[19:55] {Trip> so far, an undefined sum
[19:56] {Trip> we will give them whatever we have left over after the acquisition of Map Making
[19:56] {Dominae> ?
[19:56] {Dominae> You plan to sell MM for a bunch of gold?
[19:56] {Trip> no, no
[19:56] {nye_Gone> you are running a defecit to keep your army in the field?
[19:56] {Trip> I mean that we will buy MM, and give them the rest of our treasury
[19:57] {Trip> NYE: our treasury is healthy

[19:57] {Dominae> How healthy? Map Making is not a cheap tech.
[19:58] {Trip> over 170
[19:58] {Dominae> Ah.
[19:58] {Dominae> So Vox is lending you a city for about ~100 gold?
[19:58] {Trip> we've heard that you are researching this tech
[19:58] {nye_Gone> do you have all the prereqs for MM?
[19:58] {Trip> perhaps we could make a deal for it

[19:58] {Trip> we're in the process of acquiring Writing
[19:58] {Trip> our diplomacy was sketchy in areas during the big war
[19:59] {nye_Gone> do you have a deal pending for it?
[19:59] {Trip> we have possible sources
[19:59] {Trip> nothing definite yet
[19:59] {nye_Gone> Dominae is still driving...
[20:00] {Dominae> Ok.
[20:00] {nye_Gone> until you are satisfied.
[20:00] {Trip> like I said, perhaps we could work out a deal one day

[20:00] {Dominae> Let's cut to something interesting: you realise that, being on the border between GS and Vox, you're at both our mercies?
[20:01] {Trip> in a way, yes

[20:01] {Trip> Vox has sworn to fight to the last for us
[20:01] {Trip> which makes things interesting in its own right
[20:01] {Dominae> I imagine Vox is interested in their lump of gold. What interests GS?
[20:02] {Trip> maybe you can tell me that

[20:02] {nye_Gone> Trip. You may understand that some on GS are concerned that the balance of power in our lands has been altered.
[20:03] {Dominae> nye is right. Gathering Storm was mostly not interested in having a second neighbor.
[20:04] {Dominae> (Oooo, feels like we're ganging up on Trip!)
[20:04] {nye_Gone> I hope Trip doesn't feel that way.
[20:04] {Trip> nah
[20:04] {Trip> you forget with whom you're speaking ;-)
[20:05] {nye_Gone> Cool
[20:05] {Trip> even with a room against me, I still will retain the upper-hand ;-)
[20:05] {Trip> hehe
[20:05] {Trip> that's what I've heard NYE
[20:05] {nye_Gone> Some are willing to listen, but still know we must protect our interests.
[20:05] {Dominae> Whoa, stay back big boy!
[20:05] {Trip> LoL
[20:05] {Trip> ;-)
[20:05] {Trip> Lux has always desired a healthy and friendly relationship with GS
[20:06] {Trip> our planning was a bit side-tracked, but Lux feels that this does not hamper the matter
[20:06] {nye_Gone> I have to say now that the discussion in GS is not yet finished. Is that understood?
[20:06] {Trip> discussion of what matters?

[20:06] {Dominae> Good, then you're willing to fulfill a few of GS's requests, then? To ensure a safe harbor until you leave the island?
[20:07] {nye_Gone> The new situation. It was popped on us with little warning, and we are not finished discussing it.
[20:07] {Trip> ah, I see
[20:07] {Trip> like I said, Lux is willing to have a fruitful relationship with GS
[20:07] {Dominae> nye: Theseus and Nathan want to join the chat.
[20:07] {Trip> and we hope that the exchanges are mutually beneficial

[20:08] {Dominae> Mutually beneficial is always best.
[20:08] * Trip sets mode: -nip
[20:08] {Trip> they can join now
[20:08] {Dominae> nye: will you alert them?
[20:08] {nye_Gone> Oh, my. Does Trip have any friends on line?
[20:08] {nye_Gone> Ok, Dominae
[20:09] {Dominae> That's what I was saying: it's going to be GS vs. Trip in this chat!
[20:09] {Trip> BFM is asleep
[20:09] {Trip> Lux acts at my whim

[20:09] {Dominae> Is BFM your minister of the interior?
[20:09] {Trip> and second in command
[20:09] {Dominae> Ah.
[20:09] {Trip> most of the time he advises me
[20:09] {Trip> or takes my place in my absence
[20:10] {nye_Gone> He is good.
[20:10] {Trip> indeed
[20:10] {Trip> quite able
[20:11] {nye_Gone> I have told them the room is now open and reposted the room name. A few minutes.
[20:11] {Trip> okay
[20:11] {Dominae> Trip, although discussions are not over yet, there are a few things GS must require from Lux during your stay here.
[20:11] {Dominae> (discussions within our own team)
[20:11] * Theseus has joined #planning
[20:12] {nye_Gone> hi Generalissimo.
[20:12] {Theseus> Yo... this still going?
[20:12] {nye_Gone> yes.
[20:12] {Trip> heya Theseus
[20:12] {Dominae> Hiya Theseus.
[20:12] {nye_Gone> i hope nathan gets here soon.
[20:12] {Dominae> Hiya is cooler than heya.
[20:12] * nbarclay has joined #planning
[20:12] {Theseus> Whassup.
[20:12] {nye_Gone> and there he is.
[20:12] {Trip> heya is more composd ;-)
[20:12] {nbarclay> Hi everyone
[20:12] {Dominae> HI!
[20:12] {Trip> hiya implies excitement or a nervous disposition ;-)
[20:12] {Dominae> Now *that's* composed.
[20:13] {Trip> heya nathan
[20:13] {Dominae> No way! Hiya is like: I'm eager to talk.
[20:13] {Theseus> Trip better be composed... outnumbered 4 to 1.
[20:13] {nye_Gone> for Theseus and Nathan. We have discussed the goings on prior to Portia showing up...
[20:13] {Dominae> Trip talks cool, but is crapping his drawers right now.
[20:13] {nye_Gone> We were just getting to discussing GS's preliminary views on the matter...
[20:13] {Dominae> Yeah, that was for my sake...had to get up to speed on the whole situation.
[20:13] {Theseus> (Although I am now torn, by the allegiance to my new boss)
[20:14] {Trip> LoL
[20:14] {nbarclay> New boss?
[20:14] {nbarclay> Oh.
[20:14] {Trip> you'll have to excuse me if I take a while to speak
[20:14] {Trip> western civilization test on friday ;-)
[20:14] {Trip> I have to read candide in 3 days :Þ
[20:14] {nye_Gone> I have brought up that many on GS are concerned re the balance of power, but that many are willing to listen to see if this can work out for all.
[20:14] {Theseus> I thought you meant you were busy crapping your drawers.
[20:14] {nbarclay> Just so long as you don't get it confused with your latest Civ game

[20:15] {Dominae> Me too1
[20:15] {Dominae> !
[20:15] {Theseus> I'm just gonna watch this, mostly.
[20:15] {Trip> me too
[20:15] {Trip>

[20:16] {nye_Gone> Trip. You understand, that our being able to accept you at your word and to verify some things may be critical?
[20:16] {Dominae> Like I said before, there are a few preliminary things that GS expects from Lux during their stay in Dissidentville.
[20:16] {Trip> NYE: perhaps
[20:16] {Trip> much of this situation is still unfolding
[20:16] {Dominae> (Sorry, nye first).
[20:16] {nye_Gone> You think it is not critical?
[20:16] {Trip> indeed it is
[20:16] {Trip> Lux still has much at stake
[20:17] {nye_Gone> Perhaps. Many of us are willing to accept this situation, but we need to feel secure.
[20:17] {Trip> what is it that you suggest?
[20:17] {nye_Gone> well, tell me if I have this straight...
[20:17] {Dominae> Request, not suggest.
[20:17] {nye_Gone> Lux is here temporarily...
[20:18] {nye_Gone> Lux has agredd not to explore beyond Portia...
[20:18] {nye_Gone> Lux has agredd not to settle any other city sites...
[20:18] {nye_Gone> *agreed
[20:18] {nye_Gone> I ahve that straight?
[20:18] {nye_Gone> *have
[20:19] {Trip> NYE: that's quite correct

[20:19] {Trip> all of those are indeed facts
[20:19] {nye_Gone> OK. Are there any limits on what you build?
[20:19] {Trip> we are going to limit ourselves to defensive and building units
[20:20] {Trip> you need not fear a stack of swordsmen ;-)
[20:20] {Dominae> Workers/Spearmen/Galleys
[20:20] {Trip> settlers
[20:20] {Trip> etc.
[20:20] {nye_Gone> OK. Can you tell us if you are willing to allow some form of verification of that?
[20:20] {Trip> yes, that's correct
[20:20] {Trip> you could make sure we have no road link to the iron

[20:21] {nye_Gone> OK, we can come to that.
[20:21] {Dominae> That's a good idea Trip!
[20:21] {nbarclay> If you would be willing to keep your units outside the city where we can see them, that would make sure we know what you have. Would that be acceptable?
[20:21] {Trip> as I said, you have nothing to fear from Lux
[20:21] {nbarclay> (As long as nothing is immediately threatening the city?)
[20:21] {nye_Gone> Are you willing to accept llimits to the number of defensive units you build and to accomodate verification of those limits?
[20:21] {nbarclay> We have less to fear if we know with absolutely certainty what's there.

[20:21] {Trip> we will only keep as many units in the city as is necassary to keep dissent down
[20:22] {Dominae> There is no dissent, we're on Chieftain.
[20:22] {nye_Gone> lets leave off on that for a bit.
[20:22] {nye_Gone> Trip, when you get a boat, what direction do you plan on sailing?
[20:22] {Trip> west
[20:23] {Dominae> Back home?!?
[20:23] {Theseus> LOL
[20:23] {nye_Gone> but, form where you are, go North or South first?
[20:23] {Trip> ahhh, PBEM bug ;-)
[20:23] {Trip> we're not sure yet
[20:23] {Trip> we have yet to find an optimal route to our destination
[20:23] {Theseus> PBEM bug?
[20:23] {Dominae> AHA, you're planning on exploiting the PBEM bug to exact your revenge on ND, I KNEW IT!
[20:23] {Trip> that bumps the difficulty level down
[20:23] {nye_Gone> would you be willing to assure us you will not sail South and that you will not approach our lands in the South?
[20:23] {Trip> Dominae: which bug? ;-)
[20:24] {Trip> NYE: this depends on the geography of the area

[20:24] {Trip> are you aware of any link to a continent to the west?
[20:24] {Dominae> Bug? Which bug?
[20:24] {Dominae> ;-)
[20:24] {nbarclay> I think Trip's saying he didn't realize happiness effects are as if chieftain, right?
[20:24] {nye_Gone> Trip, what if I told you GS would regaurd any ship approaching from the South as hostile?
[20:24] {Trip> that's correct
[20:24] {Trip> NYE, what if I told you that Lux has one city?
[20:24] {Trip> ;-)
[20:25] {nye_Gone> Trip, re link to the west. yes, it is north of you.
[20:25] {Trip> anything to the south?
[20:25] {Trip> just curious

[20:25] {nye_Gone> Trip, that one city is what we are discussing.
[20:25] {Dominae> So there's no reason for your boat to go South. So we agree that your boat will go North?
[20:25] {Trip> hmmmm
[20:25] {Trip> perhaps
[20:26] {Theseus> I like your attitude... havin' fun with the game.
[20:26] {Trip> answer this for me though, as a courtesy
[20:26] {nye_Gone> if i can
[20:26] {Theseus> But you will not come south.
[20:26] {Trip> Theseus: one cannot approach this as anything but a game

[20:26] {Trip> I'm here to have fun
[20:26] {Trip> what is the shape of the coastline as your continent tapers to the south?
[20:26] {Dominae> A beautiful woman.
[20:27] {Theseus> Not anything that would indicate further lands.
[20:27] {nye_Gone> it does not get closer to the mainland. i will say that.
[20:27] {Trip> a beautiful voluptuous one, no doubt
[20:27] {Trip> NYE: thank you

[20:27] {Dominae> Voluptuous where?
[20:27] {nbarclay> In our dreams, anyhow.

[20:27] {nye_Gone> the point being, there is no reason for you to go south.
[20:27] {Trip> very well
[20:28] {nye_Gone> if you did, I could not vouch for the reaction.
[20:28] {Trip> I didn't think that they would be closer than in the north
[20:28] {Trip> though I was always curious
[20:28] {Trip> finding a faster way would be ideal for us

[20:28] {nye_Gone> yes. you should know that it is very much in our interests to speed you on your way.
[20:28] {Trip> as it is to us as well

[20:28] {Theseus> Agreed.
[20:29] {Theseus> So you want a Settler, a Galley, and at least one Spear. That it?
[20:29] {nye_Gone> Trip, re the Iron. Have you been informed that it falls in GS's lands?
[20:29] {Trip> well, the population of the city is rather high
[20:29] {Theseus> BTW, say yes, and now we're talking 2 Galleys.
[20:29] {Trip> we may have to deplete the population by some means
[20:30] {Trip> Theseus: the exact composition of our force will be determined later
[20:30] {Theseus> Well, that's part of this discussion, I think.
[20:31] {Trip> we do not have the manpower resources of GS

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:26

cont

[20:31] {Trip> we do not have the manpower resources of GS
[20:31] {Trip> we have not identified an ideal force composition VS production VS population yet ;-)
[20:31] {Trip> sorry
[20:31] {Dominae> As long as Lux's forces are out in the open, we can tolerate quite a bit.
[20:31] {Dominae> As long as it looks like you're leaving.
[20:31] {Trip> it is our desire to get a spearman, then a settler out soon, then we will be building a galley most likely
[20:31] {Trip> and that will be all
[20:31] {Theseus> I know, and it's not that we are worried about you attacking us or anything... we just want to know the plan.
[20:32] {nye_Gone> one moment guys?
[20:32] {Dominae> We'd love to invite Lux over for tea every Sunday, but GS has other plans, you see.
[20:32] {Trip> world conquest?
[20:32] {Trip> I think ND has that covered ;-)
[20:32] {nye_Gone> Trip, you mentioned need to garrison...
[20:32] {Dominae> You're putting your treasury on them (what's left of it after Vox)?
[20:33] {Theseus> Screw ND.
[20:33] {Trip> NYE: yes, I did

[20:33] {Trip> Dominae: perhaps you could put a dent in that sum via trade?
[20:33] {Trip> I know, you don't want to see Vox with any more money than necassary ;-)
[20:33] {nye_Gone> we wish to assure ourselves that there is a limited number fo effective units on our border. Can you think of how we could do that?
[20:33] {Dominae> What do you want from us?
[20:34] {Trip> NYE: as I said, I don't foresee the production of more than 2 land units from this city any time soon
[20:34] {Trip> our desire is to get out AFAP
[20:34] {nye_Gone> and what could you do to asssure us of that?
[20:34] {Dominae> As far as possible?
[20:34] {Trip> Dominae: it's come to Lux's attention that you are researching Map Making
[20:34] {Trip> or have recently completed it perhaps
[20:35] {nye_Gone> i will wait till Dominae is done.
[20:35] {Trip> NYE: we will keep our Spearman adjacent to the city, with your unit 1 tile further away
[20:35] {Dominae> You want to purchase MM from us, and give Vox the rest of your gold?
[20:35] {Trip> making sure that we can garrison our city before you can walk in

[20:35] {Trip> Dominae: that's the plan
[20:35] {Trip> Dominae: you could put quite a dent in that sum, as well
[20:35] {Trip> Dominae: at the moment, that sum is quite hefty
[20:36] {Theseus> Stop hinting... what do we have that you want?
[20:36] {Trip> Map Making
[20:36] {Dominae> Map Making
[20:36] {Trip> the sooner you get it to us
[20:36] {Trip> the sooner we leave
[20:36] {Trip> the less money Vox gets
[20:36] {Dominae> How much were you thinking, Trip>
[20:36] {Trip> Dominae: what would you request?

[20:36] {Dominae> I cannot say offhand.
[20:37] {nbarclay> Does anyone know the research cost for techs in that range?
[20:37] {Dominae> Map Making is 12.
[20:37] {Trip> in addition, Lux also requires Writing
[20:37] {Trip> we had neglected trade for a spell, which is unfortunate
[20:37] {Dominae> How far ahead are you with Writing?
[20:38] {nye_Gone> Writing is base 8.
[20:38] {Trip> far ahead?
[20:38] {Dominae> I thought you said you had begun researching it.
[20:38] {Trip> nope
[20:39] {Dominae> Ah, so you're quite a ways from leaving the continent without our help!
[20:39] {Trip> perhaps
[20:39] {Trip> we have other means

[20:39] {Dominae> Means/teams.
[20:39] {Trip> same difference
[20:39] {Trip> hehe
[20:40] {Dominae> Since you're not going to set up camp permanently in Portia, I assume you want to leave as soon as possible.
[20:40] {Trip> of course
[20:40] {Trip> perhaps if you could give me an offer we could negotiate this?

[20:40] {Trip> we already have price tags for Writing and Map Making from other sources
[20:40] {nbarclay> I looked it up, and Sir Ralph calculated 288 gold to research Map Making.
[20:40] {Dominae> I cannot give a definite offer right now.
[20:41] {Dominae> But Map Making can only come with a copy of your maps.
[20:41] {Theseus> Can you characterize your relationship with Vox?
[20:42] {Trip> Theseus: we are good friends
[20:42] {Trip> so far they have been the only team to have neither decieved nor attacked us in some way

[20:42] {Dominae> And us?
[20:42] {Theseus> Yeah??
[20:42] {Trip> we have not had any in-game contact with you until now
[20:42] {Trip> the door is open

[20:43] {Dominae> Trip, we can get you off the island fast, but we require your maps. That's a nice bargain, in general terms.
[20:43] {Trip> Dominae: as I've said, we need a finite offer
[20:43] {Theseus> *Note to self: catch up with the rest of the gang next turn.* (j/k)
[20:43] {Trip> we have recieved such from other teams
[20:43] {Dominae> Received maps or terms?
[20:44] {Trip> Dominae: terms
[20:44] {Trip> we are willing to provide you with our map
[20:44] {Trip> but
[20:44] {Trip> I need an offer
[20:44] {Dominae> I think there is a difference between us and "other teams", yes?
[20:44] {Trip> Dominae: depends
[20:44] {nbarclay> RolePlay and Vox are the only other teams Lux can trade with while they're at war.
[20:45] {nbarclay> That may limit what "other teams" is referring to.
[20:45] {Trip> we can get techs indirectly from any team

[20:45] {Trip> teams routing techs from other teams can be quite favorable, in fact
[20:45] {Dominae> Trip: I doubt there are any other teams that have 1) not sworn an oath to protect you, 2) have units buzzing around your only city.
[20:45] {nbarclay> And make tech-for-gold deals indirectly? Fascinating concept.
[20:46] {Dominae> So that makes us quite unique as trading partners.
[20:46] {nbarclay> Or you're just thinking purchase from someone who purchased from the inventor?
[20:46] {Trip> nathan: Lux has learned to be resourceful
[20:46] {Trip> Dominae: perhaps
[20:47] {nye_Gone> Dominae. The red lit bpx up top...
[20:48] {Dominae> Yes?
[20:48] {Theseus> Yeah, man, I definitely give you points for being resourceful.
[20:48] {nye_Gone> click on it, please

[20:48] {Trip> thank you Theseus

[20:48] {Trip> other teams have learned, quite to their displeasure, that more goes on in the game than is readily available
[20:48] {Dominae> Ahh, I don't know what you're referring to!
[20:48] {Trip> both ones that Lux has had problems with in the past, and those who we have not
[20:49] {nye_Gone> do you see the box near the top that says #planning? next to it...
[20:49] {Dominae> There is no red box there.
[20:49] {nye_Gone> right. there isn't now. are you in java?
[20:49] {Dominae> Yes.
[20:49] {nye_Gone> ahh
[20:50] {nye_Gone> look in the thread.
[20:50] {Dominae> I had troubles registering a nick through mIRC
[20:50] {Theseus> Anyone ever read the Emile Khadaji books? I feel like Trip is a fugue-player. (obscure, I know)
[20:51] {Theseus> I'd like us to start moving toward a definitive deal here...
[20:51] {nye_Gone> working on it, Theseus.
[20:51] {Trip> I've been waiting for a definitive deal for some time now

[20:51] {Dominae> I think nye and I are trying to get organized.
[20:51] {Trip> don't mind me
[20:51] {Trip> just reading Candide

[20:52] {nye_Gone> I think that the PTW demo game is the best of all possible worlds...
[20:52] {Dominae> Trip, let's make something clear (something I was only hinting at before): most of GS does not want to destroy you, but we can...very easily.
[20:52] {Trip> NYE: agreed

[20:53] {Trip> Dominae: with all due respect, many have thought that in the past
[20:53] {Trip>

[20:53] {nye_Gone> I would say perhaps, Dominae. We can have an effect on Portia.
[20:53] {nbarclay> Basically, the situation is that if you're sitting on our continent acting as a possible lightining rod for ND and GoW, and there's nothing positive in our relationship, your being here is a liability to us.
[20:54] {nye_Gone> I think Lux would prefer Portia, hense they are there. GS would prefer our security and to see how we can both benefit.
[20:54] {nbarclay> We aren't entirely thrilled at your and Vox making a deal that creates extra complications for us and leaving us out of the loop (and out of the stream of potential benefits.)
[20:54] {Trip> Nathan: with no coastal cities and no means to reach the continent, I invite ND and GoW to do all they might

[20:54] {Trip> NYE: Lux will be happy to oblige
[20:55] {Trip> as I've said, you have nothing to fear from our presence, and we feel that we can have a positive relationship
[20:55] {nye_Gone> Ahhh, but Trip, you do not have to live with the consequences in our shoes with those civs.
[20:55] {Dominae> So true.
[20:55] {Trip> nathan: there are many possibilities as to whom might be benefitted from this course of events
[20:56] {Theseus> Trip, do plan on having any Workers working around Portia?
[20:56] {Trip> there's no reason that GS might not be one of them

[20:56] {nye_Gone> Not really Trip, just RP, and GoW since they are playing the fense.
[20:56] {nbarclay> And as long as we have no guarantee that we'll get a piece of those "many possibilities"?
[20:56] {Trip> NYE: I invite you to go chase down 1 city on another continent with an aggressive neighbor with 10 veteran swordsmen

[20:56] {Trip> nathan: I thought that's what this was about?
[20:57] {Theseus> Trip, Workers?
[20:57] {Trip> Theseus: none planned
[20:57] {nye_Gone> Trip. Huh?
[20:57] {Trip> NYE: RP and GoW will not bother you as long as ND is a world superpower
[20:57] {Trip> they have other things to attend to
[20:57] {nye_Gone> But, this situation is bound to impact our relations with them.
[20:58] {Trip> perhaps
[20:58] {nye_Gone> No doubt. Goes quadruple for ND.
[20:58] {Dominae> Trip: we're willing to trade with you, for mutual gain, but we also have terms. We have these terms because you're have one city and we have not been at war yet.
[20:58] {Dominae> *you have one city
[20:59] {Trip> Dominae: terms of what sort?
[20:59] {Theseus> The guys are working on that, I think... So how many towns did you disband?
[20:59] {Dominae> We realise your treasury is gone if your civ suddenly has an "existence failure", which is why we're not big on destroying you.
[21:00] {Dominae> But your long-term value to us is small, because you're the enemy of the (arguably) most powerful civs.
[21:00] {Trip> three or four
[21:01] {Trip> Dominae: GoW has its hands tied, ND as well
[21:01] {Theseus> !!!
[21:01] {Dominae> Tied with whom?
[21:01] {Trip> we will see what long term benefit Lux has soon ;-)
[21:01] {nbarclay> It occurs to me that if ND has a complete map of Bob and follows the chain of logic properly, they'll be able to figure out for sure that one of the civs on our continent gave you a city.
[21:01] {Trip> each other
[21:01] {Dominae> Ah.
[21:01] {Trip> ND has hinted desires of global conquest
[21:01] {Dominae> Who hasn't?
[21:02] {Trip> who will have 20 veteran swordsmen in 12 turns?

[21:02] {Dominae> GS?
[21:02] {Trip> maybe so
[21:02] {Theseus> Friggin' Germans...
[21:02] {Theseus> They never learn.
[21:03] {nbarclay> Now, now, what would Sir Ralph think?

[21:03] {Trip> they have been the ones teaching so far

[21:03] {nye_Gone> Maybe we are going quite far afield...
[21:03] {Dominae> Term 1: you are not to leave your *current* borders. When your borders expand, you may not venture more than 1 tile from your city.
[21:03] {Dominae> Reasonable?
[21:04] {Trip> of course
[21:04] {Dominae> Ok good.
[21:05] {Dominae> Term 2: you must leave all your military units outside of the city square. Since you're not building any Workers, your city will never suffer from discontent.
[21:05] {Trip> as with the first, agreed
[21:05] {Trip> however, in accordance with that, we ask that GS keep forces at least 2 tiles away
[21:06] {nbarclay> Sounds reasonable.
[21:06] {nbarclay> That way they can defend the city before we can attack it.
[21:06] {Dominae> Hmm. Agree on the condition that we place up to 2 military units on the Iron.
[21:06] {Dominae> *Agreed
[21:07] {Trip> you may place forces whereever you wish, as long as they are not adjacent to our city
[21:07] {Trip>

[21:07] {Trip> at least, we will not protest such action
[21:07] {Trip> others may though, but I cannot guarantee their compliance, of coruse
[21:07] {nbarclay> The iron is two tiles away from their city tile.
[21:07] {nye_Gone> we may have to come back to that in one small detail.
[21:08] {Dominae> I thought you meant 2 tiles from borders.
[21:08] {Theseus> Corrrect me if wrong, I think Trip is saying 2 tiles from Portia, not from Lux territory.
[21:08] {Trip> Theseus: that's correct
[21:08] {Dominae> So GS can venture within 1 tile of Portia.
[21:08] {Dominae> Is that what you're agreeing to?
[21:09] {Dominae> 1 tile seperation
[21:09] {nbarclay> The idea is that if we're two tiles away and Lux's defenders are one away, Lux can get their defenders ready if we try something.
[21:09] {Trip> as long as GS does not move any units adjacent to our city
[21:09] {Dominae> Fine agreed.
[21:09] {Trip> they might also inhibit the movement of our units

[21:09] {Dominae> We're writing these down, in case you're not.
[21:10] {Trip> everything is recorded

[21:10] {nbarclay> I suspect more than one of us will grab a log of this chat.
[21:10] {Dominae> Term 3: no Voxian unit is to enter your territory
[21:10] {Trip> Dominae: to what ends?
[21:10] {Trip> they have agreed to improve the tiles, to hasten our departure
[21:11] {nye_Gone> military unit
[21:11] {Trip> and they will, naturally, wish to defend their units
[21:11] {nbarclay> And, of course, to make the city worth more when they get it back.
[21:11] {Dominae> Unacceptable.
[21:11] {Trip> improving it whilst its ours or theirs, they reap the rewards either way
[21:11] {nbarclay> Why the big deal about not allowing Voxian units there?
[21:12] {Dominae> While we have a deal with Lux, it does not bind Vox. Thus they may abuse that priviledge.
[21:12] {Dominae> Vox has nothing to fear, due to the border agreement we cannot approach their Workers anyway.
[21:12] {nbarclay> Abuse it how? If they wanted to take the city, no one could stop them. Otherwise, what abuse are you concerned about?
[21:13] {Dominae> On the off chance that Vox decides to attack us, they could use the Luxian borders as safe haven.
[21:14] {Trip> how about a bit of a compromise:
[21:14] {Trip> allow them 1 unit to defend their worker
[21:14] {Dominae> Sure
[21:14] {Theseus> Refinement: No offensive units? (subject to GS approval)
[21:14] {Theseus> Combined: one defensive unit.
[21:14] {Trip> I would not feel comfortable demanding that Vox remove their forces, leaving some of their assets undefended
[21:14] {Trip> I'm sure you can understand
[21:15] {Trip> their desire to help us leave might... wane
[21:15] {Dominae> That sounds good. Vox is allowed one defender inside your borers.
[21:15] {Dominae> *borders
[21:15] {Trip> agreed
[21:15] {Dominae> This is going so well!
[21:15] {Trip> Lux has certain goals
[21:16] {Trip> if GS does not impede these goals, then we at Lux will not object to things

[21:16] {nye_Gone> kewl
[21:16] {Dominae> Then the rest of our terms should be as easy to get through as the first 4.
[21:16] {Dominae> Err 3.
[21:17] {Dominae> Term 4: No Luxian boats are to sail South.
[21:17] {Dominae> (From Portia).
[21:17] {nbarclay> We value our privacy, at least what we have left of it.
[21:17] {Trip> until we've resettled, of course

[21:18] {Trip> which we can then later re-negotiate
[21:18] {Dominae> Ok, so however many boats you build in Portia (I assume 1), it may not venture South until you are resettled. Agreed?
[21:18] {nye_Gone> after that is a hole new lettle of kittens, or something like that :/
[21:18] {Trip> Dominae: agreed
[21:18] {Theseus> Cool. Why do I have this vision of massive Ragnarok, and Lux still being somewhere on the map, chuckling... don't tell me: your ultimate goal is to be hidden on the map at end of the game, with a Settler in a Gallery??!!
[21:19] {Theseus> Galley
[21:19] {Theseus> LOL
[21:19] {Trip> Lux has a fine artistic sense ;-)
[21:19] {nye_Gone> Peanut Gallery?
[21:19] {Dominae> Lux hides where everyone least expects it: inside Gathering Storm!
[21:19] {Trip> the finest museum in the world was located in the grand city of Invictus
[21:19] {Trip> we're currently researching settler cloaking ;Þ
[21:20] {Dominae> Does it un-cloak when a city is founded?
[21:20] {Theseus> Getting wacky: I, for one, would not be averse to Lux tucking a Settler away in our territory... could be hilarious.
[21:21] {nye_Gone> That's twisted.
[21:21] {Trip> Dominae: that may be a new tech ;-)
[21:22] {Trip> Theseus: could be our last action with Portia after we've sailed to the golden sun ;-)
[21:22] {Dominae> Term 5: You will obtain Map Making from Gathering Storm. We promise to give you a reasonable price. In return, we expect a copy of your World map.
[21:22] {Dominae> (Future tech 5, maybe? "Settler-cloaking"...cool)
[21:22] {Trip> Dominae: what will the exact terms of this be?
[21:22] {Dominae> You mean gold?
[21:22] {Trip> I can not agree to such a term until an exact price is set
[21:23] {Dominae> But you are open to the general idea, yes?
[21:23] {Trip> yes
[21:23] {Trip> if the price is truly 'reasonable'
[21:23] {Trip> at least, in Luxian terms

[21:23] {Trip> or rather, from a Luxian point of view
[21:24] {Dominae> We are aware that you only have a finite treasury, and that it is only growing so much per turn.
[21:24] {Trip> then we are on the same page

[21:24] {Trip> do you have an offer?
[21:24] {Trip> perhaps a matching of Writing into the deal would be desireable?
[21:24] {Trip> if not, Lux can acquire the tech within 1 turn, if necassary
[21:24] {Dominae> Perhaps you could suggest a figure first. I am not usually the big decision-maker around GS.
[21:25] {nbarclay> We'd have to clear it with the rest of the team, but would 150 gold plus a world map be in the ball park you're considering for Writing plus Map Making?
[21:25] {Trip> as you've said, Lux's treasury is quite finite at this point
[21:25] {Dominae> You expect Writing and Map Making, for ~170 gold and a World Map>
[21:25] {Trip> our resources have been strained byt the situation
[21:25] {Trip> nathan: such a deal would be acceptable
[21:26] {Dominae> Nathan is the one to talk to about the specific numbers...I'm glad he's here!
[21:26] {Trip> I like to see numbers

[21:26] {Trip> just like I like to see numbers in the ISDG ;-)
[21:26] {Trip> but we can discuss that later, Dominae, my friend ;-)
[21:26] {Dominae> I hear ya.
[21:26] {nbarclay> The catch is, we don't have Map Making yet and would have to trade for it ourselves or research it. Code of Laws is our current target, and we're in the process of trying to swing trades of that for other techs.
[21:27] {Trip> term 5 will be acceptable under the conditions laid out by myself and GS
[21:27] {nbarclay> But it will take you some time to build the other stuff you'll need before you'll be ready to send out galleys.
[21:27] {Trip> nathan: not too long
[21:27] {Trip> a fair amount of time
[21:27] {Trip> however, we are running on a time-table
[21:28] {nbarclay> Two shields per turn until another production-oriented tile gets cleared, although pop rushing might speed things up a little, right?
[21:28] {Trip> we would expect the tech within, say, 15 or 20 turns
[21:28] {Trip> nathan: indeed
[21:28] {Trip> Lux works well with limited resources

[21:28] {Dominae> You would need more time Trip.
[21:28] {Dominae> 25 turns or so.

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:30

cont

[21:28] {Dominae> 25 turns or so.
[21:28] {nbarclay> Within 20 turns would be reasonable. If it came down to it, we could research the tech ourselves.
[21:29] {Trip> Dominae: depends on how things are scheduled
[21:29] {Trip> that seems to be a fair estimate though
[21:29] {Trip> a bit off-topic, but another interesting thing to consider would be post re-location Lux and GS relations

[21:29] {Trip> any comments?
[21:30] {nbarclay> So if Gathering Storm ratifies it, we have a deal, Writing plus Map Making for 150 gold plus a world map, with Map Making to be delivered within 20 turns?
[21:30] {Theseus> LEt's come back to that... how many turns are we thinking for Lux to build the units it needs?
[21:30] {Trip> nathan: correct
[21:30] {nye_Gone> Trip. Most of the team reguard quiet on this topic to be wise.
[21:30] {Trip> non-negotiable, of course

[21:30] {Dominae> Trip, I want to make sure we're clear on term 5: Lux is not to trade for Writing or Map Making with any other civ. As insurance we also request you not trade those techs away to any other civ.
[21:30] {Trip> Theseus: Dominae's estimate seems reasonable
[21:30] {nye_Gone> I might poinjt out, so does Vox.
[21:31] {Trip> Dominae: we will not transfer any resources until the deal has become solidified
[21:31] {Dominae> I'm not sure that addresses my point.
[21:31] {Trip> NYE: what's that?
[21:32] {Trip> Dominae: if assurance can be given that GS is able to provide this, then you have our assurance
[21:32] {nye_Gone> Trip. GS and Vox both wish your presense to be kept quiet. We would not want an uproar to force us to snuff out these fruitful arrangements.
[21:32] {Trip> NYE: I think that is the wish of all of us

[21:33] {Dominae> Speaking for myself, I think Map Making + Writing for 170 gold and a map is a good deal. We are asking that you promise to complete the deal, and that you not trade away the techs afterwards.
[21:33] {Trip> I can, of course, get a guarantee that no teams will learn of our discussions or our agreements?
[21:33] {Dominae> Ok, I just read you message. Fine. Term 5 sounds okay, subject to specific numbers.
[21:33] {Trip> Dominae: as I said, if you can provide, we agree and we'll pay
[21:34] {nye_Gone> Trip. GS is quite good at keeping information to ourselves.
[21:34] {Trip> NYE: Lux hopes that this trend continues

[21:34] {nye_Gone> How much transferred with Writing?
[21:35] {Trip> we have, after all, nothing to gain from letting our location become known
[21:35] {nye_Gone> How much with MM and the Map?
[21:35] {Trip> NYE: I would say 1/3 with Writing, and 2/3 with MM
[21:35] {Trip> does this sound fair?
[21:36] {nbarclay> Marginal at best. Writing is cost 8 and Map Making is cost 12, and we wouldn't get the world map until Map Making.
[21:36] {Dominae> Ah, we're not exchanging maps, right? Just want to make that clear...
[21:36] {nbarclay> Our policy is that maps flow one way - to us.

[21:36] {Dominae> Exactly.
[21:37] {nye_Gone> I agree. I did not mean to imply otherwise.
[21:37] {Trip> of course
[21:37] {Trip> one question:
[21:37] {nye_Gone> I should have said, how much with the map for Map Making.
[21:38] {Trip> does GS see any way to directly benefit Lux, as we have been quite amiable and agreeable to GS' requests
[21:38] {Trip> perhaps a way to assist us in leaving more quickly?
[21:38] {nbarclay> Would 40% with Writing and 60% plus the map with Map Making be acceptable?
[21:38] {Trip> nathan: I can provide an unofficial "yes"
[21:38] {Dominae> YOu mean by gifting you Workers?
[21:38] {Trip> Dominae: that could be one possibility
[21:39] {nye_Gone> Perhaps we could help find them a new home...
[21:39] {nbarclay> We need every worker we have and will build in the near future.
[21:39] {Dominae> I would have to confer with the team, but I would think that's a 'no'.
[21:39] {Dominae> What else did you have in mind?
[21:39] {nbarclay> Vox can afford to use a worker there because they'll be getting the city back eventually.
[21:39] {nbarclay> But we'd be improving tiles that will belong to Vox when you return the city to htem.
[21:39] {Dominae> I think Trip meant to join the Worker to Porita.
[21:40] {Dominae> *Portia
[21:40] {Trip> NYE: our new residence has been secured, but thanks for the offer

[21:40] {nye_Gone> what other help do you need?
[21:41] {nye_Gone> btw, you said earlier that you did not know where? what gives?
[21:41] {nye_Gone> or did i get that wrong?
[21:41] {Trip> NYE: we have a location picked out, but confirmation is pending
[21:41] {Dominae> Which brings us to term 6 (my last, nye may have others...):
[21:41] {Trip> i.e. we know where we're going but are working on the means and the details
[21:41] {Dominae> Term 6: Upon arrival to your "new home" you provide GS with a Territory map.
[21:42] {Dominae> Hopefully you'll be going somewhere that we can hook up via Harbors before Astronomy.
[21:43] {nye_Gone> Trip. I need a straight answer on this. The hawks will review this log. Is there a land mass North of us that you already know is there and intend to move to. Yes, or no?
[21:43] {Trip> #6 may be difficult to provide
[21:43] {nye_Gone> Or, are you waiting for contact with Lego?
[21:43] {Trip> NYE: there is not
[21:43] {Trip> NYE: we will end up no where near GS
[21:43] {Dominae> Why is #6 difficult?
[21:43] {Trip> which is partially why we want to leave ASAP
[21:44] {nye_Gone> Trip. The hawks will demand knowing something about how you intend to vacate.
[21:44] {Dominae> We know where you are, we would like to know where you will be...
[21:44] {nye_Gone> If you know of no land, what is your plan?
[21:44] {nye_Gone> in general terms.
[21:44] {Dominae> (Don't say "sail south") ;-)
[21:45] {Trip> there is a land, far beyond the setting sun, for which we sail
[21:45] {Trip> for now, I am not permitted to speak of it
[21:45] {nye_Gone> how do you know? is that lego?
[21:45] {Trip> though I will provide you with as much information as I can
[21:45] {Theseus> I gotta go. Trip, I have to say that I am extremely impressed / amused by how you handle yourself. I very much look forward to working with you in the IDG. Last thing: as the resident warmonger, please do not cross GS.
[21:45] {Trip> and I can assure you it will be no where near GS' sphere of influence
[21:46] {Dominae> Trip: are you planning to run your boat into the ocean? That would be poetic indeed.
[21:46] {nbarclay> You're sure it's not so far beyond the setting sun that your galleys can't make it?
[21:46] {Trip> Theseus: I have a way I approach the DGs, mainly to have fun ;-)
[21:46] {nbarclay> (Or can't make it safely?)
[21:46] {Trip> Dominae: we may be Russians, but we're not the subject of trite poems ;-)
[21:46] {Trip> nathan: quite sure

[21:47] {Dominae> I thought you were Ottoman.
[21:47] {nye_Gone> Honouary Russians
[21:47] {Trip> in spirit ;-)
[21:47] {Trip> farewell Theseus, it will be a pleasure to work with you
[21:47] {Dominae> "Russians with good Cavalry"
[21:48] {Trip> really good cavalry

[21:48] {Dominae> Later Theseus.
[21:48] {nbarclay> Is there a kind with bad cavalry? Cossacks weren't exactly the worst cavalry in the world - they just stopped looking quite so good when sipahi showed up.
[21:48] {nbarclay> Bye Theseus.
[21:48] {Dominae> Trip: term 6.
[21:49] {nye_Gone> Trip. We would also be interested to know if you have any tech we do not have.
[21:49] {Trip> all I know is that a handful of Siphai can make quite a dent

[21:49] {Theseus> See ya.
[21:49] * Theseus has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:49] {Dominae> As someone who doesn't like Cavalry, I thought the Cossacks stank.
[21:49] {Trip> NYE: Horseback Riding, apparently
[21:49] {Trip> a question I ask of GS: is there any knowledge of what might lie to the east of GS?
[21:49] {Dominae> The rising sun.
[21:49] {nbarclay> Water.
[21:49] {nye_Gone> Would you grant that tech to a friend giving MM at a very reasonable price?
[21:50] {Trip> NYE: depends on how friendly this friend is

[21:50] {Trip> though a friend of mine, is a friend of Lux

[21:51] {nye_Gone> It matters little to us as you may understand *cough, War Chariot, cough*, but it would be an act of good faith.
[21:51] {Trip> of course
[21:51] {Trip> I will take this matter to the inner-council

[21:51] {nye_Gone> Wondeful.
[21:51] {Trip> I would predict that such a measure would be accepted
[21:52] {Dominae> Horseback Riding would be a nice gesture, we could even forget about term 6.
[21:52] {nye_Gone> I think we can do business.
[21:52] {nbarclay> NYE, did you have anything more to add?
[21:52] {nbarclay> Regarding what we want form Lux?
[21:53] {nye_Gone> Well, we are a little aprehensive about what happens to any tech that Lux may gain during their stay here.
[21:53] {nye_Gone> Will Lux agree not to resell anything that they gain?
[21:53] {Trip> from GS?
[21:53] {Dominae> In addition to Writing and Map Making, of course.
[21:54] {nye_Gone> Well, we can't control what you gain from RP, can we?
[21:54] {Trip> I wouldn't imagine so

[21:55] {nye_Gone> Will you share that with us?
[21:55] {Trip> share what?
[21:55] {nye_Gone> what youi might gain from the continent.
[21:55] {Trip> we are inclined to always wish to trade with our friends

[21:56] {nye_Gone> although, how you would pay for it is a bit of a mystery.
[21:56] {nye_Gone> btw, what is your reasearch set to?
[21:56] {Dominae> IN BLOOD!
[21:56] {Dominae> Ahem, sorry.
[21:56] {Dominae> ;-)
[21:56] {nye_Gone> you must be working on something at 40 turns.
[21:56] {Trip> NYE: how do you think we acquired the most money on the planet

[21:56] {Trip> Dominae: you'd be surprised ;-)
[21:57] {nye_Gone> OK. Can we review?
[21:57] {nbarclay> My guess would be Construction on a 40-turn basis if they want maximum value.
[21:57] {Trip> NYE: sounds good
[21:58] {nye_Gone> OK.
[21:58] {Dominae> Yeah, I'm getting tired and I still have to finish this proof.
[21:58] {nye_Gone> 1. Lux will move no unit more than 1 tile from Portia. That means adjacent.
[21:58] {Trip> LoL Dominae
[21:59] {nye_Gone> 2. Portia will be left ungarrisoned so that we can verify your forces.
[21:59] {nye_Gone> 3. Vox will be limited to one defensive unit in your territory, plus however many workers they see fit to send.
[22:00] {nye_Gone> 4. Lux will not sail South from Portia.
[22:00] {nye_Gone> 4a. Lux will not approach the Southern lands from another direction.
[22:01] {Dominae> That's not review.
[22:01] {Trip> 3a. GS will never move a unit adjacent or closer to Portia ;-)
[22:01] {nye_Gone> yes
[22:02] {nbarclay> 4a is clarification to close a possible loophole. That's a legitimate function of review.
[22:02] {Trip> don't ask me how we'd approach GS from any direction but south :P
[22:02] {Dominae> I'm fine with it, but it's not what we discussed. As long as Trip is okay with it.
[22:02] {nye_Gone> 5. Writing and MM will be purchased from GS for 150 gold and the Lux map.
[22:03] {nbarclay> Lus WORLD map.
[22:03] {nbarclay> Lux
[22:03] {nye_Gone> yes. Lux World Map. In game.
[22:03] {Dominae> Yeah, not the 9-tile one...(sorry!)
[22:03] {Trip> LoL
[22:03] {Trip> ;-)
[22:03] {Trip> you look for so many loopholes
[22:03] {Trip> I'm not Togas here

[22:03] {nye_Gone> well,...
[22:04] {Trip> I'm a warrior, not a diplomat ;-)
[22:04] {nbarclay> Sorry, just read a post or two too many from him.

[22:04] {Dominae> You ARE Togas>
[22:04] {Dominae> ?
[22:04] {nye_Gone> there is one last point, which i do not think you will fuss over.
[22:04] {Dominae> 5a, no re-sell of Map Making, Writing
[22:04] {Trip> Dominae: if so, I hold quite a few offices in the ISDG ;-)_
[22:04] {nye_Gone> yes. thanks dominae
[22:05] {nbarclay> Writing, everyone else already has (at least everyone but Lego).
[22:05] {Dominae> Yeah, Minister of War and Foreign Affairs!
[22:05] {nbarclay> We can't say for sure about Lego.
[22:05] {nye_Gone> the last point trip, we reserve the right to block the road to the north, and you will not complain about that.
[22:05] {Trip> NYE: Vox may
[22:05] {Trip> so you may want to discuss that with them and not us
[22:05] {nye_Gone> that is between vox and us.
[22:05] {Trip> Lux has no interest in that area
[22:06] {Trip> on a side-note, let me remind GS that in 60+ turns, Lux will be quite a... powerful... ally
[22:06] {nye_Gone> you may notice that some of these terms require a three way agreement.
[22:06] {Trip> it would be in the bests interests of both teams to maintain a very friendly relationship

[22:06] {nye_Gone> i agree.
[22:06] {Trip> NYE: we expect that Vox and GS will work that out independently
[22:07] {Trip> Lux can assure the compliance of no one outside of Lux jurisdiction
[22:07] {nbarclay> 60+? Maybe with a really huge emphasis on the +.
[22:07] {nye_Gone> we will do that next.
[22:07] {Trip> nathan: you would be surprised

[22:07] {Trip> as I'm sure you've been surprised already in this game...
[22:07] {Dominae> Trip, off the record, could you hint at this plan that's got you feeling so secure?
[22:07] {Trip> Lux makes sure to always have a card or two up its sleeve
[22:07] {Dominae> Is there like a ring of Monoliths somewhere that we don't know about?
[22:07] {Trip> even with 0 cities, a settler and at war with a continent

[22:08] {nye_Gone> Trip. We would value the friendship of Lux. That is why we are here talking instaead of being in the armoury...
[22:08] {Trip> Dominae:
[22:08] {Trip> (whenever I try to say Dominae, it always ends up "dome" :Þ)
[22:08] {Dominae> Theseus is in the armoury.
[22:08] {Dominae> But he lives theres.
[22:08] {Dominae> *there.
[22:08] {nbarclay> I thought Theseus was in the bed.

[22:09] {nye_Gone> we should send him some food.
[22:09] {Trip> Dominae: we have nothing more up our sleeve than a plan
[22:09] {Trip> NYE: glad to hear it

[22:09] {nbarclay> Or is his bead in the armory?

[22:09] {Dominae> Sounds good Trip. I can't wait to see it materialize.
[22:09] {nbarclay> bed
[22:09] {Dominae> His head is in the armoury, that is enough.
[22:10] {nbarclay> Let me guess, an island full of cattle?
[22:10] {Trip> a true warrior sleeps with his sword ;-)
[22:10] {Trip> nathan: in a symbolic way, perhaps ;-)
[22:10] {Dominae> Symbolic Cattle?
[22:10] {Trip> nah
[22:10] {Trip> just a symbolic island filled with riches
[22:10] {Dominae> Atlantis!
[22:11] {Trip> Lux certainly moves around to be Atlantis :Þ
[22:11] {Trip> good thing there's no natural disasters in Civ 3

[22:11] {Dominae> Ok, that's it for me, I have to finish a proof then catch those z's.
[22:11] {nbarclay> Isn't Atlantis where GoW was before it sank into that one-tile tundra?

[22:11] {Trip> one last thing
[22:11] {nye_Gone> g'night dominae
[22:11] {Trip> where does GS stand on the world diplomatic stage?
[22:11] {Dominae> Front center.
[22:11] {Trip> nathan: or perhaps vice versa
[22:11] {nye_Gone> on the good side, I hope
[22:11] {Dominae> Why do you ask?
[22:11] {Trip> NYE: that's all in the eye of the beholder ;-)
[22:12] {Trip> Dominae: Lux has plans for the future
[22:12] {nye_Gone> you mean relative to someone else?
[22:12] {nbarclay> We really haven't had contact with anyone but Lux for long enough to get out on the world stage much.
[22:12] {Trip> NYE: of course
[22:12] {nye_Gone> who?
[22:12] {Dominae> Ok, I gotta go. 'Nigh al.
[22:12] {Dominae> *all
[22:12] {Trip> everyone
[22:12] * Dominae has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[22:12] {nye_Gone> g'night
[22:12] {nbarclay> Bye Dominae
[22:12] {Trip> especially ND-GoW
[22:12] {Trip> the warmongers of this world
[22:12] {Trip> the world is brewing with conflict
[22:13] {Trip> it's only a matter of time before the Lux war sets the stage for something much bigger
[22:13] {Trip> this I know
[22:13] {nye_Gone> mostly non entities for us so far. but we note the tendancies.
[22:13] {Trip> for I know the situation on the continent
[22:13] {nbarclay> What do you envision the next war being?
[22:13] {Trip> over the continent
[22:13] {Trip> ND has too big of an army
[22:13] {Trip> GoW and RP are building up too fast
[22:13] {Trip> the pot will boil over one day
[22:14] {nye_Gone> Theseus is playing with boats and armies in some sand box, last I heard.

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:31

last

[22:14] {nye_Gone> Theseus is playing with boats and armies in some sand box, last I heard.
[22:14] {Trip> there is already much strain and tension between those who remain on the continent
[22:14] {Trip> our departure may be a good thing in the long run...
[22:14] {Trip> Lux will one day return to that continent
[22:14] {Trip> when that time comes, there will be hell to pay
[22:14] {Trip> and I invite the gods to stop the fate of this world
[22:14] {nye_Gone> I would imagine.
[22:15] {Trip> neither a warning nor a threat, but an invitation
[22:15] {nye_Gone> That is how it is received.
[22:15] {Trip> we hope to GS on the side of right
[22:15] {nye_Gone> as do we.
[22:16] {Trip> we understand that GS has its interests
[22:16] {Trip> there is more at stake here than that
[22:16] {Trip> as is evidenced by the charity of the continent upon which we reside
[22:16] {Trip> allowing us to make our temporary home
[22:16] {Trip> Lux knows its friends
[22:16] {Trip> and Lux knows its enemies
[22:17] {nye_Gone> well, let us look forward to a smooth and uneventful visit.
[22:17] {Trip> indeed
[22:17] {Trip> I hope for the same

[22:17] {nye_Gone> we will be in touch. soon.
[22:17] {Trip> yes, agreed
[22:18] {nye_Gone> is there anything else from your side?
[22:18] {Trip> Lux hopes that the power politics of the continent do not flood over into virgin lands as these
[22:18] {nbarclay> By the way, what happened to your forces on Bob when you moved here?
[22:18] {Trip> NYE: perhaps you could ask of our former home
[22:18] {nye_Gone> wait till you hear this, nathan.

[22:18] {Trip> we are glad to prevent such a situation from spreading
[22:18] {Trip> nathan: they will cause all hell

[22:18] {Trip> sizable hidden armies are quite fun to play with
[22:19] {Trip> our only play will not be in our new city

[22:19] {nbarclay> And come to think of it, an alternative explanation for your still being alive is that you have a settler hiding somewhere.
[22:19] {nbarclay> I wonder how long ND and GoW might wander around looking for that nonexistent settler?
[22:20] {Trip> nathan: not long
[22:20] {Trip> ND is very clever
[22:20] {Trip> moreso than I gave them credit for
[22:20] {Trip> they know their tactics and strategy
[22:20] {Trip> I'm quite impressed
[22:20] {nbarclay> I'm curious: why attack their scount when you did when you didn't have better forces?
[22:20] {Trip> they managed to box our settler into a corner from which it was impossible to escape
[22:21] {Trip> nathan: they have 6 Swordsmen outside of our city
[22:21] {Trip> I recieved a PM from Darekill of ND saying that an attack was imminent
[22:21] {Trip> diplomatically, we were in the right, and I believe that everyone knows that
[22:21] {Trip> strategically, it was necassary to provide for an efficient withdrawl
[22:22] {Trip> their scout and prevention of the destruction of roads betwen our outer border and our capital was necassary
[22:22] {Trip> otherwise, we may not be talking right now

[22:22] {Trip> a good general knows how to use his units
[22:22] {Trip> when to fight with them, and when not to
[22:22] {Trip> there may be many a joke about Lux's military practices
[22:23] {Trip> but rest assured, they are the reason Lux exists
[22:23] {Trip> and ND and GoW don't have the treasury you will soon recieve for those technologies
[22:23] {Trip> elevating the facade of retreat, disorganization and chaos always works in the favor of a cool-headed leader

[22:23] {nbarclay> I seem to recall Russia using "scorched earth" rather effectively a time or two.
[22:24] {nye_Gone> Trip. You asked that we could ask of your former home. ???
[22:24] {Trip> nathan: they had quite a bit more land, but weren't quite as clever ;-)
[22:24] {Trip> it's a pity we don't have 1 million square miles upon which to draw resources, but we make do
[22:24] {Trip> NYE: what is it you wish to know?
[22:25] {Trip> I've explained the general situation the best I think I can so far
[22:25] {nye_Gone> You gained horse recently, with the first city to go under. You did not have them sooner?
[22:25] {Trip> our REX was entering full force
[22:26] {Trip> we had planned a military build up and a massive REX
[22:26] {Trip> unfortunately, we were blessed with the most rotten spot in the PTW DG I believe
[22:26] {nye_Gone> Does GoW have iron or Horse?
[22:26] {Trip> all resources closer to the borders of our neighbors
[22:26] {Trip> GoW has horses
[22:26] {Trip> ND has 2 horses and 2 iron
[22:26] {nye_Gone> GoW has no Iron?
[22:26] {nye_Gone> Did you have iron?
[22:26] {Trip> from what I know, no
[22:27] {Trip> we had access to iron, but ND cut us off from it rather quickly
[22:27] {nye_Gone> GoW is in bad shape.
[22:27] {Trip> they lost their chance at survival by joining ND against us
[22:27] {Trip> they will soon be cut off into a small peninsula by ND
[22:27] {Trip> who will soon have over 20 swordsmen
[22:28] {nye_Gone> and no hesitation
[22:28] {Trip> GoW's only chance of survival is teamwork with RP and a massive buildup
[22:28] {Trip> things are rather tense over there

[22:28] {Trip> it almost makes our little jungle abode seem somewhat humorous
[22:28] {nye_Gone> how many ND cities can you see on your map?
[22:28] {Trip> 4, currently
[22:28] {nye_Gone> GoW?
[22:28] {Trip> the same
[22:29] {Trip> a pity too, since our REX was about to enter full-swing
[22:29] {nye_Gone> and locked in build up...
[22:29] {Trip> we only had 3 cities at the onset of the war
[22:29] {Trip> in 10 turns we would have had 7
[22:29] {nye_Gone> will you be so good as to let us know if any more appear before you give us your map?
[22:29] {Trip> of course
[22:29] {nye_Gone> thank you.
[22:29] {Trip> I warn you now
[22:29] {nbarclay> Do you have much if any intelligence on RolePlay?
[22:29] {nye_Gone> do you have any knid of a view on RP lands?
[22:29] {Trip> interfere in the politics of the continent at your own risk
[22:30] {Trip> it's a kettle I don't wish to touch until our padding is quite thick...
[22:30] {nye_Gone> you might see we are very isolationist.
[22:30] {Trip> maintaining such a path is in your best interests, I do believe
[22:30] {Trip> avoid becoming favorable to one civ over there
[22:30] {nye_Gone> we like it.
[22:30] {Trip> or you may be drawn in
[22:30] {Trip> we have not seen RP's land
[22:30] {Trip> though they have a massive sum of land
[22:30] {Trip> infinite resources, luxuries
[22:31] {Trip> if ND does not get them, they will be the world superpower one day
[22:31] {nye_Gone> i guess so. what is the lux situation North of RP?
[22:31] {Trip> what do you mean?
[22:31] {nye_Gone> luxuries.
[22:31] {nbarclay> Luxury
[22:31] {Trip> ah
[22:31] {Trip> using the word Lux implies too many things ;-)
[22:31] {nye_Gone> yes.
[22:31] {Trip> there are a fair amount of luxuries in the north
[22:31] {nye_Gone> not lower case 'L'
[22:31] {nye_Gone> *note
[22:32] {Trip> we would have had 3 or 4 within our borders
[22:32] {nye_Gone> which ones?
[22:32] {Trip> wines, furs, gems
[22:32] {Trip> probably be sucked up by ND before too long
[22:32] {Trip> or possibly RP
[22:32] {Trip> I'm going to be very curious as to the relationship between GoW and ND
[22:33] {nye_Gone> yes
[22:33] {Trip> how do you see the future relationship between GS and Vox?
[22:33] {Trip> does GS hold any interest in the continent?
[22:33] {nbarclay> That probably depends on what opportunities present themselves.
[22:35] {Trip> no comment?
[22:35] {Trip>

[22:36] {nbarclay> I'd really rather not go into more detail, though; a lot may depend on how things play out on the main continent. (I do have vulturish thoughts from time to time should the right situation arise.

)
[22:36] {Trip> don't be shy now, I'm not

[22:36] {Trip> hehe
[22:36] {Trip> colonization of the eastern coast may be in your benefit
[22:36] {nbarclay> Hey, you won't tell us your master plan for the big comeback, right?
[22:36] {Trip> 2 luxuries lie on the east coast
[22:36] {Trip> nathan: only because we're obligated not to ;-)
[22:37] {nbarclay> Colonization would be a risky move unless and until we're sure we have the military to back up our claims while still protecting our interests in the homeland.
[22:38] {Trip> all civs on the continent are quite wrapped up in other affairs
[22:38] {nbarclay> And I'd just as soon leave it that way.
[22:38] {nbarclay> Besides, luxuries aren't quite as critical on Chieftain as on higher levels, especially in the early game.
[22:39] {Trip> I can't believe this game is on Chieftan :\
[22:39] {Trip> how... unstrategic
[22:39] {nbarclay> It does take away a lot of the tough choices.

**notyoueither** · February 26, 2003, 04:50

Next Log

Posted in the wrong place. See Vox thread.

**notyoueither** · February 26, 2003, 04:52

nm

**nbarclay** · March 2, 2003, 07:57

Chat between nbarclay and Trip:

[00:33] { nbarclay > I've heard a rumor that you may be trying to negotiate a Map Making deal with GoW.
[00:34] { Trip[poker] > we've heard a lot of things :Þ
[00:34] { nbarclay > So?
[00:35] { Trip[poker] > Vox said that they'd worked things out with GS regarding that
[00:35] { nbarclay > Regarding what?
[00:35] { Trip[poker] > trading techs
[00:36] { Trip[poker] > what does GS know about the situation?
[00:36] *** Trip[poker] is now known as Trip
[00:36] { Trip > I haven't heard from GS in a while about things
[00:36] { nbarclay > Things have been getting complicated.
[00:36] { Trip > okay, perhaps you could summarize things for me
[00:37] { nbarclay > The big mess is that you said you were going to give Vox the gold that was left after you bought Map Making.
[00:37] { nbarclay > Then we found out the gold was already in Vox's hands.
[00:38] { nbarclay > There's a big difference there from a diplomatic perspective, even if it is a subtle one.
[00:38] { Trip > yes, we had access to it though
[00:38] { Trip > but - off the record - Vox has blackmailed us
[00:39] { nbarclay > Blackmailed?
[00:39] { Trip > they're forcing us to deal with them
[00:40] { nbarclay > Are you talking about their wanting you to get Map Making from them?
[00:40] { Trip > and everything else
[00:40] { nbarclay > What else? The two gold per turn?
[00:40] { nbarclay > Anything besides that?
[00:41] { Trip > we had quite a few possible deals lined up
[00:41] { Trip > but they either involved Writing or Map Making
[00:41] { Trip > which means that we can't trade anything to anyone anymore
[00:42] { nbarclay > Right now, the most urgent thing is coming up with some kind of arrangement acceptable to you, us, and Vox.
[00:43] { nbarclay > Don't worry about whether Map Making comes from us or from Vox. That's something we'll take care of between us.
[00:43] { Trip > heh
[00:43] { nbarclay > Well, you sort of forced us into it offering us gold Vox was expecting.
[00:44] { Trip > right now Vox has made the deal into how we owe them our entire economy for a long time, 7 techs and a permanent alliance
[00:44] { nbarclay > Either we come up with something acceptable to both of us, or our diplomatic relations are hurt.
[00:44] { nbarclay > Is there anything in the deal that would keep you from trading the techs to someone else?
[00:44] { Trip > which techs?
[00:45] { nbarclay > The ones you've agreed to pay Vox.
[00:45] { Trip > we can trade them
[00:45] { Trip > but 7 techs is quite a lot
[00:45] { nbarclay > And survival in the face of certain death isn't a lot?
[00:46] { Trip > not when you can look elsewhere
[00:46] { nbarclay > Where elsewhere?
[00:46] { Trip > not important
[00:46] { Trip > what is it you wanted to talk about?
[00:47] { nbarclay > Mostly to find out whether you were negotiating to buy Map Making from someone else besides us and Vox.
[00:47] { Trip > yes
[00:47] { Trip > is that a problem?
[00:47] { Trip > I don't think we ever agreed not to officially
[00:48] { nbarclay > It does do a pretty through job demolishing any variant of the draft agreement you reached with us, right?
[00:48] { Trip > only one part of it
[00:49] { nbarclay > Yes, the part where we get something out of your presence here.
[00:49] { Trip > it wouldn't have been hard to renegotiate one segment
[00:50] { Trip > I fail to see how our presence hurts GS in any way
[00:50] { nbarclay > It complicates our lives rather considerably.
[00:51] { nbarclay > Did we not explain that in the last chat?
[00:51] { Trip > it was our goal to make our presence relatively unnoticed
[00:52] { Trip > it seems our new hosts would rather exploit our situation, which is unfornate
[00:53] { nbarclay > What demands have they placed on you since you came here that significantly undercut your interests?
[00:54] { nbarclay > As long as you get Map Making, where it comes from shouldn't be that big a deal one way or the other.
[00:54] { Trip > except for the fact that it costs us over 250 gold and a 20 cost tech
[00:55] { Trip > in exchange for a 12 cost one
[00:55] { nbarclay > Construction wasn't originally part of your deal with Vox, but other techs were?
[00:55] { Trip > yes
[00:55] { Trip > and the gold
[00:55] { nbarclay > Where does the 250 figure come from?
[00:56] { Trip > whatever we gave them before (which was to be used to get other techs, instead they've stolen it)
[00:56] { Trip > and they want more from us now
[00:56] { nbarclay > I thought what they had was 150 that was supposed to go for other techs, and they now wanted 2gpt for 20 turns.
[00:56] { nbarclay > That would be 190 total.
[00:57] { nbarclay > More precisely, 150 for Writing and Map Making.
[00:57] { nbarclay > (They keep whatever's left.)
[00:57] { Trip > at some point it becomes more fun to join ND and take over the planet than to be subject to this
[00:58] { nbarclay > Is there gold beyond the 190 I know about involved?
[00:58] { Trip > nothing finite yet
[00:59] { nbarclay > So where does the 250 figure come from?
[00:59] { Trip > exaggeration and expectation
[01:00] { nbarclay > So really, they're wanting 40 gold more than you originally agreed to. Plus the question of Construction. Right?
[01:01] { Trip > and the fact that we could have traded for 4/5 other techs
[01:01] { nbarclay > Could you please explain that?
[01:02] { Trip > we had a web plan developed with other teams regarding a few techs
[01:02] { Trip > which now won't occur
[01:02] { Trip > so we won't be able to get to the Middle Ages without researching things for ourselves
[01:02] { nbarclay > Is that a plan that's already ruined, or one that could be put back into effect if the right arrangements can be reached?
[01:03] { Trip > there's no possibility at this point, I'm afraid
[01:03] { nbarclay > Would you mind explaining what the plan was, or would that be getting into confidential matters?
[01:04] { Trip > Writing and Currency from one team for 40 of the gold that we had with Vox
[01:04] { Trip > Polytheism, Literature and something else, I forget
[01:05] { nbarclay > That's trading Construction?
[01:05] { Trip > and using some of the money we had
[01:05] { Trip > which Vox has no longer given us the ability to use
[01:06] { Trip > the deals were still being negotiated, and things were open
[01:06] { Trip > but now there's no chance of them going through, I'm afraid
[01:06] { nbarclay > Would you mind telling me how long until you're expecting Construction?
[01:07] { Trip > a while
[01:07] { Trip > very long while
[01:07] { nbarclay > 40 turns minus however long you've been researching it?
[01:07] { Trip > yes
[01:07] { nbarclay > How long have you been researching it?
[01:08] { Trip > not long
[01:08] { Trip > since we arrived I think
[01:09] { nbarclay > My impression was that the gold Vox is holding was earmarked for the specific purpose of obtaining Writing and Map Making, not for you to use however you saw fit.
[01:09] { Trip > they were to be used for that purpose
[01:09] { Trip > that was part of the scheme we'd worked out
[01:11] { nbarclay > So if you get Writing and Map Making and Vox gets the 150 gold, you're getting what your deal with Vox said you should?
[01:11] { nbarclay > Just not what you'd hoped to in addition to that?
[01:12] { Trip > at the discretion of Lux and Vox
[01:13] { nbarclay > So the real sticking points left are Construction and the extra gold Vox wants now?
[01:14] { Trip > and the fact that we won't have any leverage for trading for anything for - probably - the rest of the game
[01:14] { nbarclay > Is there anything that could, realistically, be done about the lack of trading leverage at this point?
[01:15] { nbarclay > (Other maybe than give you a bunch of techs for essentially nothing?)
[01:15] { Trip > due to the fact that it's Lux in this situation and not another team, and that I've tried looking at all the possibilities...
[01:15] { Trip > no
[01:16] { nbarclay > So how is the lack of trading leverage a sticking point in negotiations?
[01:16] { nbarclay > I can see why you don't like the situation, of course.
[01:16] { Trip > sticking point?
[01:16] { nbarclay > A point that interferes with finding a mutually acceptable agreement.
[01:17] { Trip > at this point we have no way of disagreeing
[01:17] { Trip > though I certainly will remember this
[01:18] { nbarclay > How much hope do you have of trading Construction for anything?
[01:18] { Trip > none
[01:18] { Trip > someone else is researching it
[01:18] { Trip > they will finish first
[01:18] { nbarclay > Ah.
[01:19] { Trip > it was part of our deal-in-progress that we would research contstruction in exchange for a few other things
[01:19] { Trip > however, that deal has fallen through now, no doubt
[01:20] { nbarclay > If Vox would provide you with techs of equal value in return for Construction if they get Construction from you, would that make your supplying them with Construction acceptable?
[01:20] { Trip > at this point anything is acceptable
[01:20] { Trip > we have no chance to argue
[01:20] { Trip > so there's no point in trying
[01:21] { Trip > BH has already said everything is final
[01:21] { nbarclay > I think I can talk to BetaHound if we can work things out where you'll depart as friends rather than being angry.
[01:22] { Trip > it may be a bit late for that
[01:22] { Trip > but you can try I suppose
[01:22] { nbarclay > Too late for me to talk to him?
[01:22] { nbarclay > Or too late to keep you from being angry?
[01:23] { Trip > a team being exploited to gain some gold does not leave a good taste in people's mouths
[01:23] { Trip > even if the deal changes, the intent remains
[01:24] { nbarclay > I thought the intent was something mutually beneficial - you get to survive, and they get some profit out of the deal that lets you do so.
[01:24] { nbarclay > The thing is, we were left out of the original deal.
[01:24] { Trip > existing is an odd way of putting it
[01:25] { Trip > we sit in a city for 50 turns, unable to conduct diplomacy, unable to move units, unable to play the game
[01:25] { nbarclay > True.
[01:25] { Trip > I'm starting to wonder if transferring all of our resources to ND might have been a better idea
[01:26] { Trip > it would have been quite easy to conquer the continent
[01:26] { Trip > that would have been fun
[01:26] { nbarclay > You mean transfer your resources to them and then join their team?
[01:27] { Trip > yes
[01:28] { Trip > or at the very least, exist as a protectorate will full rights
[01:28] { Trip > transferring gold and techs to them
[01:28] { Trip > acting as part of their team with access to their forum
[01:30] { Trip > we were very close to that point
[01:30] { Trip > one day away
[01:30] { Trip > though I decided against it for other opportunities
[01:31] { nbarclay > And then the other opportunities didn't work out the way you'd hoped they would, right?
[01:31] { Trip > until today
[01:34] { nbarclay > Here's my current thought:
[01:35] { Trip > okay
[01:35] { nbarclay > 1) I need for you to try not to do anything with GoW that would mess up our deal for Map Making.
[01:36] { nbarclay > If it gets messed up, there's no telling when we or Vox might find it practical to get the tech for you.
[01:36] { nbarclay > And the fact that GoW wants to renegotiate a deal we'd already thought was locked in makes me wonder if your actions aren't interfering.
[01:37] { Trip > well, GS changed their offer
[01:37] { Trip > so apparently this deal wasn't so locked in
[01:37] { Trip > just for the record
[01:37] { nbarclay > What do you mean GS changed their offer?
[01:39] { Trip > when we agreed to something, it was later re-negotiated between Vox and GS
[01:39] { Trip > without any input or informing of Lux
[01:39] { nbarclay > Keep in mind that our offer was never ratified by the team. I thought we'd made it clear in the chat that ratification would be necessary.
[01:40] { nbarclay > And then we found out that gold we thought was in your posession was really already in Vox's.
[01:40] { Trip > if that's true, then why does GS view the deal as "locked in"?
[01:41] { Trip > I said we had access to it
[01:41] { nbarclay > That, in turn, created a an extra diplomatic hurdle we hadn't expected, and we haven't regained our balance from that yet.
[01:41] { nbarclay > I'm not talking about the deal with you. I'm talking about a deal we thought we had locked in with GoW to acquire Map Making from them.
[01:42] { Trip > what's that have to do with Lux?
[01:43] { nbarclay > I don't know whether it has anything to do with you or not, but the fact that they want a "no tech whoring for ten turns" clause makes me wonder.
[01:43] { Trip > odd how teams are so worried about that
[01:44] { Trip > they should just be the first to pawn it off to everyone
[01:44] { Trip > end of issue
[01:44] { nbarclay > I don't know whether they're doing it as a standard precaution or whether they're doing it specifically to protect a deal they're trying to work out with you.
[01:45] { Trip > standard stuff
[01:45] { Trip > we were just recently approached with the deal
[01:45] { nbarclay > Okay.
[01:46] { nbarclay > Anyhow, try not to mess things up for us, please.
[01:46] { nbarclay > And I'll talk to Beta about making sure you get compensated with other tech if they end up getting Construction from you rather than getting it some other way sooner.
[01:47] { Trip > good luck
[01:48] { nbarclay > The extra gold they want is so we can have reasonable compensation for the hassle your being here brings us without creating a situation where we end up getting more gold out of the deal than Vox does.
[01:48] { nbarclay > (The exact detals between us and Vox are a matter between our teams.)
[01:49] { Trip > it will be interesting to see what the future holds
[01:49] { Trip > both short and long-term
[01:50] { nbarclay > Just so long as you aren't speaking in the sense of the old Chinese curse.
[01:50] { nbarclay > "May you live in interesting times."
[01:50] { Trip > hehe
[01:50] { Trip > we'll see
[01:51] { nbarclay > Can you live with paying the extra two gpt for 20 turns without getting too upset over it?
[01:51] { Trip > perhaps
[01:51] { Trip > it will cripple us for the rest of the era though
[01:51] { Trip > so far our only leverage has been our money, which has gotten us far
[01:51] { Trip > we have nothing now, and that will remain the situation
[01:52] { Trip > not like we're in any position to negotiate though
[01:52] { nbarclay > I'm not sure how far 40 gold would get you anyhow.
[01:53] { nbarclay > In one sense, you aren't in a position to negotiate, but in another, having you as a friend rather than angry later is worth something.
[01:53] { nbarclay > The trick is to find a deal that benefits you without costing GS or Vox more than it's worth.
[01:53] { Trip > you'd be surprised where 40 gold could have gotten us
[01:54] { Trip > but I suppose that's relegated to the collection of hypothetical situations
[01:54] { Trip > what will become of Lux after this little agreement?
[01:54] { nbarclay > Maybe, but I like to think I can dig reality out of hypotheses if the right situation presents itself.
[01:55] { Trip > will GS and Vox ignore us now that they have the gold?
[01:56] { nbarclay > We can't ignore you completely as long as you're on the same land mass with us.
[01:56] { Trip > ways other than putting warriors next to our undefended city I mean
[01:56] { nbarclay > Seriously, I'm always looking for ways to leverage a situation to our advantage, so don't be surprised if I find an idea that benefits you in the process.
[01:57] { Trip > well, I'll wish you good luck and put forward a professional and realistic attitude
[01:58] { Trip > at this point I've already accepted the situation, so you don't really need to worry about things
[01:58] { nbarclay > Thanks for clearing up the situation for me.
[01:58] { Trip > any time
[01:58] { Trip > that I'm here, at least
[01:59] { nbarclay > I guess I'd better get to work on my message to Beta.
[01:59] { nbarclay > Bye.
[02:00] { Trip > okay
[02:00] { Trip > bye

**notyoueither** · March 6, 2003, 19:04

R.I.P.

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