DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[asleepathewheel]

big to GoW patrolling their borders with tanks.

or.... are we sure they know GoW has tanks? maybe this is just a fishing expedition to see how far ahead we are from them...



I don't have anything of substance to add, as this is a very delicate situation.

[vulture]

If ND and GoW have an embassy (which I imagine they do) then the military advisor will tell them that the best unit GoW have are Tanks. Or so I believe. It's only if you don't have an embassy that your knowledge is limited to what you've seen in the field.

[vmxa1]

I Deepo's idea of trying to make some sort of deal where both GoW and ND understand we will be force to help ND is they are backstab during the time of the invasion.

All to expire after we give ND tanks (or sell or trade). ND should undersand that GoW has very little to gain by attacking them before Lego.

They must all understand that either will incur our wraith and could get Lego to aid them. They can just go to Lego and tell them of the plan and point out it is good for them to jump in.

Frankly I cannot see either jumping the other without at least one team on their side. It is just too risky. Again, no one can afford to worry about that as they would be doomed.

None of the three of us could hold out against the the rest or even two. Well they may hold out, but they would be effectively out of the running.

[Cort Haus]

OK, so it looks like we should offer ND a security plan. We agree to trade them Electronics and Mot Trans the same turn as Lego get those techs, at their usual price to ND (20%?), and meanwhile offer them a security pact, guarranteeing their safety against GoW until we supply them Mot Trans. This could offer the balance we need to keep GoW focused on Lego and preventing ND attacking GoW.

[Cort Haus]

Another thought - do we want ND to join in against Lego?

[Aeson]

Is Lego at the 4 turn threshhold anyways? They certainly should be given their land. It will make it cheaper for Lego to get MT, but not faster.

I don't like the idea of telling GoW that we would be forced to join in on ND's side. In that case it will appear to GoW as if they have to join up with Lego to stay alive. If we do give this guarantee to ND, it has to be kept from GoW or we will be fighting Lego alone.

I do like a limited (defensive) and secret MPP with ND if we can get it. If GoW attacks one of us, the other will attack GoW, not to apply in reverse. ND would get MT for a price now and be required to declare war on Lego (to cut deals if not to fight) when the invasion starts, covering the cost benefit that Lego would be receiving from another civ having the tech. If we could get ND to at least offer some sort of landing threat (even if it's just 5-10 empty transports and a bit of fleet cover) along with that it would help greatly.

I'm not too worried about GoW holding back more because of ND's Tanks. If we can get more out of ND to cover possible GoW "defections" from the invasion it will work out to our benefit by taking more land from Lego than GoW does.

[Cort Haus]

I sent a note to Darekill floating the embryo of a security deal to keep the dialogue going and to see what they think of it.

[DeepO]

Maybe it's best to keep the limited MPP secret from GoW. However, I'm not sure if this is the perfect thing to do. The problem I see is that in case we don't tell them, we risk ND building up force on their side of the border, so that GoW will find themselves in the need for more troops as well.

Further, in case GoW somehow attacks ND, they will probably find it very strange to hear that we've got a MPP with them... but this doesn't bother me that much: they shouldn't attack ND, period.

Further, yesL the price has been 20%, and IMO it should stay like that. We can discuss other payment options, like embargoing Lego (for which I would be willing to drop the price with several hundred gold).

-----------------

One more fundamental question, is that we seem to agree that we will sell tanks to ND. For me, that's fine: so far ND has been honorable in their deals with us, and we are slowly gaining their friendship. I trust them more than I trust MZ and the rest of GoW (in case there still is a rest of GoW). However, we must be certain of that before discussing options on how, and when to deliver it to them.


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Aeson: they are at 4-turn research, however I'm not certain if it doesn't make a difference. True, they are likely far ahead of us in bpt, but both AT and electronics are expensive techs to get (4800 beakers, minus the 20% discount for being 3rd). We can make 1000 bpt at max slider, and I'm sure Lego can do this as well. But there is a good chance that they will not set to 100% that easily, and choose for 5-turn research instead. Further, if ND has the tech, it's a flat 1000 gold Lego is not able to get in the same time, which is considerable, no matter how good their economy is doing.

Last thing: I would prefer ND to be tankless for the moment. It won't give them any ideas to attack us, before we've got plenty of MI covering our Western cities.


CH: one minor remark: when dealing with ND, use plain language, please. I'm not certain if otherwise the message gets through.

Just tell them: "we're still discussing this, but in case GoW would attack you before we give you tanks, we will attack GoW, and aim to destroy them." It's much more powerful... also, I'm not sure if the "private" MPP got through, in that they are not supposed to tell GoW... but we can more formally describe this once we know our stance better.

Fine, back to the beach for me... take care, guys!

DeepO

[Arrian]

Well, based on the latest from Darekill, the MPP idea is up in smoke. ND and GoW have reached an agreement, and we are no longer needed.

Note that there is now a NAP between GoW and ND. ND keeps its promises. Should GoW and GS do too well against Lego, ND may feel compelled to do something about it. Under those circumstances, ND's target would be us (unless the NAP runs out at just the right time).

Just thinkin' out loud...

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

translation: we're screwed

[vmxa1]

I am not so sure that it has any bad connotation for us. What does it mean? It could mean just what is says, ND and GoW are not going to fight each other right now.

That is good, we want them to be in on Lego. If they in fact are in on US, then, we go down swinging.

The question is then who to try to hurt. At first glance ND would be my choice, but I think I would feel most betrayed by MZ.


ND was never our friend and really never said it was. GoW has tried to make us think we were working together.

Anyway nothing has changed from about 6 months ago. Namely if the three of us do not join to attack Lego, they win. If ND and GoW do not see that, we are cooked.

I do not see how GoW could see slicing us up will make them a winner. It will only make them number 2, but then they will be that anyway.

ND claims to be happy to see Lego win, so I have no idea why they are in the game.

The good news is we must go very soon, regardless.

[DeepO]

Such grim ideas here... personally, I see GoW screwing ND once the time comes. Or, we should have too won much on Legoland, in which case we will become the target. Right now, there is little we can do about that, though.

The only thing I see Re: our current situation, is to offer a one-way MPP to ND, but for a price. Or, maybe, we can get GoW into this. I don't think ND understands we want to have a limited duration MPP, just for 15 turns or so...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

We'll see if ND still want tanks early (message in log). Their reason for seeking this seems to have evaporated. At least we made them a nice offer - can't do us any harm diplomatically.

[DeepO]

WTF?! GoW is going to give ND the techs? what gives them the right?! This really pisses me off, I hope it's just a misunderstanding. GoW is bound to 20 turn NDA on those techs, and we will NOT want to loose money because they want to play nice to ND. If they give them to ND, they have to pay us!

Please get on this, this is important!

Further, was AT send to ND? It is their payment for espionage, so send that immediately, please, together with a message what it's intended for. We need espionage the moment they got it, without delay. In sending AT now, they will send it immediately, these Germans are very honorable in their agreements. And any turn won on the tech, means we can build it sooner in Arashi, freeing it for marines, infs, or whatever.

Please contact GoW to clear this mess, this is not right.

DeepO

[DeepO]

See the log for last message. The deal on MT has been done, radio was sold by GoW (to be expected), but most importantly: they are asking about computers.

I propose to trade it to them, however as we wouldn't be waiting for Lego to have it first, ask a bit more from ND in return. Say... 30% of the beaker price or so... or 25%, and another 20 turns on their lux (we were supposed to pay them again in turn 250. We will not get another tech to sell beforehand.)

DeepO