DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[DeepO]

They will need electricity before they can get AT, Arrian. and we can probably make some 500 gold, and can offer them 700 if we agree to delay our plans by one turn.

I was about to cheack the save to see what we can do, and how far Lego is from us. Look for an analysis thread soon...

DeepO

[Arrian]

I figured that out, actually (electricity). See the ND contact thread, I wrote a draft counteroffer. What do you think?

-Arrian

[DeepO]

I would be more blunt in your response to ND, Arrian. Tell them they get a 4 to 1 return on techs, if they get electricity and Steam from us, and that we are not going to give them a 20 to 1 return. It would not be fair. Also, stress again that we can beat them, Lego can beat us, but they can never beat us, as they don't seem to realize that.

DeepO

[Arrian]

I see no point in taking a harsher line with them, DeepO. I find their "offer" insulting, but I've no intention of letting that come out in my communication with them. Further, do you really think they will listen to us if we tell them "look, we're definitely going to beat you to ToE, so do what we want."

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, okay, I admit, I'm tired from the conference, so perhaps I'm over reacting. But please first of all read the new thread I opened on this subject before sending anything to ND. I doubt we need them, which makes it unnecessary to send 4 techs to them.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Don't worry, I won't send the message to ND until we've talked it out a bit - and more people besides just you and I chime in.

I'll check out your new thread now.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

That is more than fair Arrain. The problem is can GoW even deliver?

[Theseus]

14:1... Nicely said.

[Krill]

*Bump*

Ok, While I know that this is basically practice, We still need to discuss the two topics on NDs' latest offer:

Here is the ommunique with ND, and the two topics that were mentioned were trading Tech at 20% of the beaker price, and the lux embargo.

On the former note I think that this is a fair deal, since we want them to stop helping lego, this helps us on the immediate matter of breaking Lego, without any long term problems that we can not plan for.

On the lux embargo, We are not going to lose much, obviously, and we will gain a fair amount of time, enough to hopefully cripple Lego permanently. Since DeepO and I can see no downside to this trade, and it has already been discussed, we have agreed to this.

But lets just discuss them again, shall we?

[DeepO]

Krill, nice to dig this thread up. I don't think everything has been said about the topic, though, this is not just a trial run

more precisely to the price of techs: 20% is a bargain. We had something like 30% for electricity, but that was for a tech where there was no competition: either they bought it from us, or they researched it themselves.

Lego got 15% and lux (not known how many) for previous deals. If ND would agree to keep their lux for them, instead of selling them to Lego, I would certainly go to 15% straight.

Other things: we're currently getting one lux (ends in 9 turns, IIRC). What is that lux worth to us in terms of tech trade? We previously made something close to 20 gpt from it, this may have increased a little. 300 gold discount once the current deal ends?

What is rubber worth to us? Keep in mind GoW will also want to sell it to us


Second part: lux embargo: We need to have the other teams (especially GoW) into this as well. I already asked in the message to ND if they could legally stop the deal without breaking it. In case everyone could, it would be superb.

But at any rate, GoW needs to be asked to not give lux to Lego!

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, and something else, Krill: maybe good to set some kind of internal dead line. For instance: this discussion can only take 2 days maximum, before ND is to be contacted again. (sooner is better, but leave at least a day for all to comment). We have regularly forgotten deadlines in the past, and irl I'm known to do it often

DeepO

[Krill]

Ok, you're the boss; we will contact ND at 16:00 GMT on Friday (the reason I said GMT is that I cannot work out time zones).

And on your issue of Lux, It will be our sixth lux, so it would be wise to keep it, and it also helps to placate ND, eg look at us, we are so nice, please don't invade us or we'll kill you (where have I heard that before), but it is not essential.

The lux should only be paid for in tech if they pay us some gold, eg an extra 450 gold, nothing excessive, but I would be willing to lower the amount we want since we would look more friendly to ND (and maybe a little more lax, so they may start to underestimate us).

[DeepO]

Krill, please, again, I'm not the boss! This is your show from now on, but expect comments from everyone. Hopefully

GMT is fine by me Plus, no need to get anal about deadlines or so, it's just that in case I forget, you just warn me

Lux: It's our 8th lux, in case GoW delivers gems next turn. But that one should be the one we trade with Lego: in case we could get others to follow us, I would be more then happy to stop that trade.

last lux deal, we gave them a discount of 200 gold on the price, IIRC. I'm sure they would welcome a 300-400 discount as well. And indeed, only discounts, we're not going to pay them for it

the price of rubber, however, is definately trickier.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Sent message to GoW, seeing what they have to say about a Lux embargo - partial or full.

The value of a lux depends on how many you have. The price of a lux may, as many have argued, is whatever the market decides.

If a lux saves you from using the slider, its value can be calculated in gpt. If it bumps/keeps a few cities in WLTKD its value may instead be measured in spt.

The vending civ has no idea of the value to the purchaser, so will use theur judgement as to whether the price is right - hence the market decides.

[vulture]

I'm happy with ND paying 20% of research costs for techs, particularly if it keeps them from dealing with Lego. Once they are up to date, they could aid research for us and GoW by funnelling cash to allow us to go at 100% science (or as close as feasible), or some equivalent deal. ND gets a very good deal out of this, but at the price of being a tech or two behind sometimes, and being at the mercy of us not wanting to sell suddenly - so they are behind and have to do their own research.

Plus, at this stage where we are planning a mass upgrade, gold has a lot more value to us than usual. That's one odd feature of this game - if gold were only used for buying and selling, it would be pretty constant in utility. But since it can be used for rushing units and upgrading, there are times when having 100 gold is worth far, far more than a having a tech worth 100 gold.