DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[vulture]

And here is the lamentably neglected ND diplomacy discussion and comments thread.

I suggest we offer Physics, and ask what they meant about astronomy - do they really not have it yet? Or do we find out all about their current tech state in the chat?

[Arrian]

How many pages did you have to dig through to find this thread?

I posted my thoughts in the GoW/ND tech trade thread, but I can paste 'em here:

...

Is anyone going to be able to make the chat at 3pm today? I can't, since that's mid-afternoon and I'll be here at work (what a pisser I didn't get sick a day or two later, so I would be home today).

As we've all seen, ND is interesting in some of our techs, though they aren't real forthcoming about what they wish to pay for those techs.

I think we need to put together ideas along those lines:

1) Gold: how much are the techs worth, considering devaluation? Whatever the number we come up with, it should be a bit less than we charged GoW.

2) Tech: what do we want from them? Is there anything in the medieval era we still want, besides ToG, which is to be our next tech?

3) How do we work in GoW to this? GoW has both Astro and Physics, yes? We have little to no desire for MT. Do we have Metallurgy? Sorry, I forgot to check that when I opened the last turn.

It seems to me that if GoW and GS both have the techs in question the best thing would be for ND to pay us gold. Discounted, of course. By the way, does Lego have Physics yet? If not, depending on what ND is doing for research, we may want to hold off on giving it to them to keep Lego's costs up. The key is what ND is doing right now (are they researching? If so, what, and when will they finish?).

Once we get this era out of the way, here is a possibility for the IA:

Stage 1: GS researches Steam, GoW researches Medicine, ND researches Nationalism. We all trade and move to Stage2.

Stage 2: GS researches Electricity, ND researches Industrialization (or vice-versa, doesn't matter to me), GoW either funnels cash to the two of us or researches Sanitation or somesuch.

Stage 2 is a little fuzzy in my mind right now. I'm going on several basic assumptions, which like all assumptions, have the potential to make an ass of me:

1) GS has greater research power than GoW, possibly by a lot.
2) GS and ND are roughly comparable in research power, possibly with a small edge to GS for now.
3) That a 3-way research alliance is possible between these 3 civs, given that ND didn't have iron last turn and could be doing another mass upgrade which might mean another war on Bob.

I think we should explore something like the above plan with GoW & ND in chat if possible.

-Arrian

[vulture]

Originally posted by Arrian
How many pages did you have to dig through to find this thread?

Actually I just looked in the topped office of diplomatic affairs thread which cunningly has links to all the diplo and discussion threads...

[Cort Haus]

I'm not sure that ND research power is huge. Their pop is less than ours and terrain less developed, if the map from GoW is anything to go by. What concerns me is the logistical headache of trying to co-ordinate everything to match our prebuilds while thwarting theirs.

I think that if in this chat we can agree on (1) cutting Lego out of tech deals and (2) agree the Nat-Steam-Med deal in principle, that'll be a good start. We also try something with ND for Physics. We might have to give tech on credit, but I would like to be ahead going into the IA. We can't have GoW pipping us to the ToE.

[Arrian]

The way we control this situation is that we research at the speed that gets us to Sci Method right in time for our prebuild. If we're really the best researcher, we can control the pace somewhat. The key is making sure we can still beat Lego to Sci Method (PRAY Vox gets Nationalism, PRAY!!!).

I think you're right, in that our research power is the highest of the 3 civs. I gave ND some extra credit, because I firmly believe they have a FP (the leader from the war!) down south of the Alamo.

The thing is, do you think GoW or ND can research Medicine as fast as we can research Steam? Possibly. It is the cheapest tech, right? Let's say they can do it in 6 turns, like we figure we can do Steam. 2 for finishing Mag + 6 for ToG + 6 for Steam/Medicine = 14. Then we need Electricity and Sci Method. We can do Elec in ~8 turns, and Sci Method in ~6. Another 14, which means 28 altogether, which IIRC is exactly right for our prebuild. This is where turn order really favors us. If we time the prebuild right, and the tech pace right, we will get ToE.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

More thoughts:

One of my worries is that neither ND nor GoW can research Medicine in 6 turns. We need that tech to proceed along the Sci Method line, and if they can't do it as fast as we do Steam, we lose some time. Obviously we will still be faster to Sci Method via trading than if we researched all this stuff ourselves, though. If they are a turn late or something, fine, we can do max tax to save up for the Electricity push (biggest tech in the path). But I would really like to have an idea of their beaker output before committing to a deal.

Also, we kinda need to know their current research. GoW is going for MT, right? We're going for ToG. What is ND doing? What is GoW going to pay us for ToG? ND?

If we actually get ToE and Hoover, the world will hate us, you know that right? I relish that thought. Oh, I can TASTE IT!

-Arrian

p.s. Even if we do successfully freeze them out, Lego's looming GA scares me.

[vulture]

Originally posted by Arrian
More thoughts:

One of my worries is that neither ND nor GoW can research Medicine in 6 turns. We need that tech to proceed along the Sci Method line, and if they can't do it as fast as we do Steam, we lose some time. Obviously we will still be faster to Sci Method via trading than if we researched all this stuff ourselves, though. If they are a turn late or something, fine, we can do max tax to save up for the Electricity push (biggest tech in the path).

We don't need it as fast as we do Steam though. Electricity only has Steam as a pre-requisite, so we don't need Medicine until we reach the end of Electricity and are ready to go for Scientific Method. That gives them plenty of leeway to research Medicine in time for our purposes.

[Arrian]

We don't need it as fast as we do Steam though. Electricity only has Steam as a pre-requisite, so we don't need Medicine until we reach the end of Electricity and are ready to go for Scientific Method. That gives them plenty of leeway to research Medicine in time for our purposes.

Oh, I forgot that. I don't have a real good picture of the IA tech tree in my head (I have a much better feel for the medieval age).

Well, that's GREAT then. But it means that WE must be the team to research Steam.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Yes we want to be the team to reseach Steam. We do not want to wait for anyone to send it to us and lose some shields/food boost.

[Cort Haus]

Hey Vulture, very impressive!

[Arrian]

Oh, ok then. I guess I'm not the new ambassador to ND. I've no objection, since Vulture can actually send messages in German. ND might be a tad confused, since I recently told them *I* was the new ambassador...

Whatever. I'm willing to be an ambassador if you need one, Cort. Lego, perhaps?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

*BUMP*

Ok, right, THIS is the discussion thread.

From Dom's last post in the log thread:

In any case, there's no point in getting angry about this. Let's assume everyone is playing to win and see what we can do with what we're given. We need to react and adjust to this set of circumstances, not complain about them (even though they are admittedly frustrating).

Agreed. I felt the need to vent my frustration, but I'm done now. No more whining (for now, anyway, ).

So how to proceed? My suggestions:

1) Write back to ND, tell them we feel that disrupting Lego was crucial to preventing them from winning, and we are obviously dismayed that ND would actually stand by and let Lego win if it became clear that they would without military action.

Regarding technology, we remain interested in trading with ND, and would really appreciate it if they would respond to an offer of ours they don't like with a counteroffer. Or at least give us some sense of what we're bidding against. We're willing to negotiate, but it takes 2.

2) Inform GoW of ND's stance and indicate that it seems GAUL is dead. Ask them how they feel about this. Our stance, obviously, is a team that is down but not necessarily out, and we're looking for a way to deal ourselves back in.

3) We need to develop a plan that somehow works to the benifit of GoW and GS. There is no point in trying to convince another team to do something we want them to do, but is contrary to their interests.

#3 is the killer, isn't it?

I see two basic ways forward:

1) GoW, with GS assistance, attacks ND. Not sure this helps matters, though.

2) GoW and GS team up on a very organized, very specifc amphibious (marines) strike on Legoland, leaving GoW with most of their firepower at home to deal with ND should ND assist Lego.

Or there is always the option of "do nothing" but I don't see how either GS or GoW can expect to win that way. ND, like Dominae says, may really think they can beat Lego in a buildoff (even if we disagree). And I for one believe them when they say they're ok with losing in the end to Lego if the only way to prevent that is attacking Lego.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Really nothing has chaged, in that we still have to forge ahead with our plans to get the ToE. We still need to try to make deals with other teams, but have to be very careful about any trades with Lego. We need to try to get NDA's that keeps tech from moving to everyone as often as we can.

Later we can see how it stands. If no wars breakout I am not seeing many ways we can start one that does not include 2 of the other powers. I doubt that any one on one wars will be allowed. Sort of reminds me of the nasty Senate in Civ2.

[notyoueither]

ND are nuts if they think they have a prayer of beating Lego in a build off. Look at the cities. Look at the pop. No way in hell can they catch Lego in development this close to Hospitals.

If ND do not change tunes right quick, I'd be all for a GoW-GS gutting of them come Marines.

It's either #2 going after #1 with help, or all that's left is for #3 and #4 to have some fun where we can get it.

[notyoueither]

... and I'll be damned if Lego shouldn't get the gold star for diplomacy award in this game. It seems as if they've caught every break, but I'd bet a limb this history is more to do with their actions rather than blind luck.