F11 screens: 4000bc - present

[alva]

F11 : A.R. : POP : GNP : GOOD : LAND : LIT : DIS LIFE : FAM : MIL : INC : PROD : 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3900:  1   :  6  :  1  :  1   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  1   :
3850:  1   :  6  :  1  :  1   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  2   :
3800:  1   :  7  :  2  :  7   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  7   :
3750:  1   :  7  :  2  :  7   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  7   :
3700:  1   :  7  :  3  :  7   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  7   :
3650:  1   :  7  :  1  :  1   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  3   :
3600:  1   :  7  :  2  :  2   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  2   :
3550:  1   :  7  :  2  :  2   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  2   :
3500:  1   :  7  :  2  :  2   :  1   :  1  :  7  :  1 :  2  :  1  :  1  :  2   :
3450:  1   :  7  :  4  :  5   :  1   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  4  :  1  :  1  :  ?   :
3400:  1   :  7  :  4  :  6   :  1   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  4  :  1  :  1  :  7   :
3350:  1   :  7  :  3  :  6   :  1   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  1  :  1  :  6   :
3300:  2   :  7  :  3  :  6   :  1   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  1  :  2  :  6   :
3250:  2   :  7  :  2  :  1   :  1   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  1  :  2  :  3   :
3200:  3   :  7  :  3  :  2   :  2   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  1  :  2  :  4   :
3150:  2   :  6  :  3  :  2   :  2   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  2  :  2  :  3   :
3000:  2   :  5  :  2  :  2   :  2   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  3  :  2  :  2   : 
2950:  2   :  3  :  4  :  3   :  4   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  3  :  2  :  4   :
2900:  2   :  2  :  1  :  3   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  5  :  2  :  2   :
2850:  2   :  2  :  1  :  2   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  5  :  2  :  1   :
2800:  2   :  2  :  1  :  2   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  5  :  2  :  1   :
2750:  2   :  1  :  1  :  1   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  7  :  2  :  1   :
2710:  2   :  1  :  1  :  4   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  5  :  2  :  1   :
2670:  2   :  1  :  1  :  1   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  5  :  2  :  1   :
2630:  2   :  1  :  1  :  1   :  3   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  3  :  4  :  2  :  1   :
2590:  2   :  1  :  1  :  4   :  4   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  1  :  6  :  2  :  1   :  
2550:  2   :  1  :  1  :  5   :  5   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  1  :  4  :  2  :  1   :
2510:  2   :  1  :  1  :  5   :  5   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  1  :  4  :  2  :  1   :
2470:  2   :  1  :  1  :  6   :  5   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  1  :  6  :  2  :  1   :
2430:  2   :  1  :  1  :  6   :  5   :  1  :  6  :  1 :  2  :  3  :  2  :  2   :

note: pollution is not shown

P.S. feel free to ad/correct turns when needed throug editting this post.

[Shiber]

Is there any way we can tell if/when Vox used the settler that they built in 3000 BC just by looking at their score?

[nbarclay]

The power graph seems to indicate that they built a city the turn before we built Hurricane. If you look at the graph, they have a jump in relative power somewhat bigger than what comes from building a warrior, and then the turn after that when we have Hurricane, the relative power is back essentially where it was. Also, there's no way they could have built a more expensive military unit so soon after their settler even with a chop. The logical inference seems to be that the spike in their power came from founding their second city.

Nathan

[alva]

Just a trade idea,

Would it be of any use to try and trade on of these? (F11, even partialy perhaps)
It seems to me, we can do more with these screens, then other teams can...
(and it will/could help the diplo side of things)

[DeepO]

... taking it further: trading power graphs? Now here's an interesting thought. I would love to get a look at any power graph of a nation that has met someone els (not us), that's like 2 status reports at once!

The problem is that we have something interesting to show to others, which will be quite clear from our powergraph. They will be able to see that we have built a city too, while our F11 position indicates EotS hasn't built a settler yet. The obvious 'hey, they got a gift' thing may not be very good for our image.

F11 screens are less good to analyze, but they could be an option once a trade is going... not for an initial proposal without some other trade like minimap or tech.

DeepO

[Shiber]

nbarclay, if we can be sure that your hypothesis regarding the Voxian power graph spike is correct, and that they've already built a city with their latest settler, that would mean that they have no other settlers. Since their city is still size 1, it will take them some time both to reach size 3 so that they could build another settler and to finish 30 shields (while we have EoTS which already has 3 pop and is producing shields fast). Wouldn't that mean that the chances are greatly in our favor if we choose to race them for building a city on the Isthmus?

[DeepO]

Shiber, and what does that achieve? Blocking a force with nothing but warriors (the whole 2 of them for the moment), splitting up our front when we're already low on defense? Sorry, not realistic. We'll get to the Isthmus, eventually.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Our score performance is a dead giveaway to anyone who knows how to read scores. One or two pop points aren't worth nearly as much score as the extra size a second city provides are.

Assume Gathering Storm has only one city. Then it should be falling behind civs with two cities in score. But it's not falling behind civs with two cities in score. Therefore, the assumption that GS has only one city must be wrong, and they must have gotten a free settler or city. QED.

We can use the same approach for a while to get an idea who has fewer cities than us, who has the same number, and who has more. But it starts to fail as temples go into operation because the founding of new cities and the cultural expansion of existing cities produce essentially identical effects on nation size (especially considering the forces of overlap on one hand and of getting any tile in between two other controlled tiles on the other).

I don't like the idea of trading things like power graphs and F11 screens at this point. It's not like we really need the information for anything.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Assume Gathering Storm has only one city. Then it should be falling behind civs with two cities in score. But it's not falling behind civs with two cities in score. Therefore, the assumption that GS has only one city must be wrong, and they must have gotten a free settler or city. QED.

Sorry, but nothing erat demonstrandum. We might as well have hooked up a luxury. Having one permanently happy citizen is a big score boost too.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
nbarclay, if we can be sure that your hypothesis regarding the Voxian power graph spike is correct, and that they've already built a city with their latest settler, that would mean that they have no other settlers. Since their city is still size 1, it will take them some time both to reach size 3 so that they could build another settler and to finish 30 shields (while we have EoTS which already has 3 pop and is producing shields fast). Wouldn't that mean that the chances are greatly in our favor if we choose to race them for building a city on the Isthmus?

If we're going to take a chance on something, I think my "Operation Blown GA" is a better bet. Our ability to outgrow Vox is the biggest thing we have going for us, and I don't like the idea of reducing our number of early core cities by one just to stake a claim that Vox would probably rather fight than honor.

Also consider that if I'm right that Vox will take the city from us, when the time comes for us to invade Vox, we'll have to go through a hill city with most of their troops stacked in it. I'd much rather the city we have to go through to enter their lands be founded where Thadeus is sitting, where the defense bonus will be a lot lower.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Sorry, but nothing erat demonstrandum. We might as well have hooked up a luxury. Having one permanently happy citizen is a big score boost too.

Making a content citizen happy has no more effect on score than adding an extra content citizen does. Both effects, even combined (i.e. a civ connects a luxury about the same time they grow in size), are rather small compared with the effect of adding about nine tiles of territory (not to mention the extra pop in the new city). So no, our score can't be accounted for just by our capital's population and the possibility of having hooked up a luxury.

Nathan

[Harovan]

We were making about +1 per turn before we founded Hurricane and are making +2 per turn now. Not much of a difference.

I have other PBEM games running, in two of them I hooked up a luxury early and my score went up steadily, compared with the other players, although I don't have found a settler or a city. In one of them I don't even have a food resource, but my score is still higher than the others.

But this discussion leads nowhere, in a couple of turns Vox will know without reading in the stars, that we have a second city.

[DeepO]

and a few turns after that, they'll now we have more cities then they'll have

DeepO

[alva]

updated, and bumping from time to time