Dimplomatic Scholia: Ambassador's Office - Vox Controli

[Theseus]

My response:

Thanks...

Hey, a thought just occurred to me... evidently in these PBEMs we can't see what happens in combat. Can we agree that each team will report to the other what happens unit by unit?

[notyoueither]

The log from my chat with Beta last night.


Session Start: Thu May 01 20:57:20 2003
Session Ident: #Balls
[20:57] * Now talking in #Balls
[20:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +nt
[20:57] * ChanServ changes topic to '2Balls'
[20:57] * ChanServ sets mode: -o notyoueither
[20:59] * BetaHound has joined #balls
[20:59] {BetaHound> hello
[20:59] {notyoueither> hi
[20:59] {notyoueither> how are things?
[20:59] {BetaHound> how's things?
[20:59] {BetaHound> hehe
[20:59] {BetaHound> good thanks.
[20:59] {notyoueither> not bad.
[21:00] {BetaHound> what are we chatting about?
[21:00] {BetaHound> ptwdg?
[21:01] {notyoueither> yeah. some of us thought it would be good to see where you guys are sitting.
[21:01] {BetaHound> As in 'between a rock and a hard place.'
[21:02] {notyoueither> yeah. we have noticed a decrease in traffic.
[21:02] {BetaHound> I could say - part of the plan.
[21:02] {BetaHound> But - what do you see as the options now?
[21:03] {notyoueither> not sure. one sec.
[21:03] {BetaHound> k
[21:04] {notyoueither> sorry, talking to togas about isdg in polyisdg
[21:04] {notyoueither> just about done.
[21:04] {BetaHound> k
[21:06] {notyoueither> back.
[21:06] {notyoueither> the situation is interesting.
[21:06] {BetaHound> indeed
[21:07] {BetaHound> so - what do you see as the options now?
[21:08] {notyoueither> good question.
[21:08] {notyoueither> it depends on how much you guys are willing to bet on this war.
[21:08] {BetaHound> ???
[21:09] {notyoueither> well, you are attacking. when you started you seemed to have the odds in your favour. but the tables have evened up considerably. the future depends on how much you guys are willing to commit to it.
[21:10] {BetaHound> Yup - that is true. Question?
[21:10] {notyoueither> go ahead.
[21:10] {BetaHound> How much world support have you been able to garner?
[21:11] {notyoueither> hmm, not sure. there is a lot of chatter. yourselves?
[21:12] {BetaHound> Bout the same. But I get the sense that folks are pulling for the underdog.
[21:12] {BetaHound> Makes sense from a larger game perspective.
[21:12] {notyoueither> who is the underdog?
[21:12] {BetaHound> Uh - I think that would be us.
[21:13] {notyoueither> 4 7 from mingapulco. barb at 7 7 7 btw
[21:13] {BetaHound>
[21:13] {BetaHound> one chat at a time is all I can handle.
[21:14] {BetaHound> There is a point to consider here:
[21:14] {notyoueither> sorry bout that beta. have isdg people pestering me.
[21:14] {notyoueither> go ahead.
[21:15] {BetaHound> Regardless of who supports whom ..
[21:15] {BetaHound> And regardless of the extent of that support ..
[21:15] {BetaHound> it is still only the two of us on Estonia.. and ..
[21:16] {BetaHound> the others would be more than happy to see us knock heads for awhile ..
[21:16] {BetaHound> adding a bit of fuel here..
[21:16] {BetaHound> and a bit of fuel there...
[21:16] {BetaHound> but never really finishing it - if you get my drift.
[21:17] {notyoueither> yep. i can see that.
[21:17] {notyoueither> give enough to keep it going, but not enough to support a decision.
[21:17] {BetaHound> It is something we have considered - especially as we are the cannon fodder.
[21:18] {BetaHound> (should've gone 20 turns sooner...)
[21:19] {notyoueither> yes, that would have been interesting.
[21:19] {notyoueither> question. did you guys realise you were violating a NAP?
[21:20] {BetaHound> And?
[21:20] {notyoueither> you don't care then?
[21:21] {BetaHound> The answer to your question is yes - we knew it.
[21:21] {BetaHound> Did we care? Of course.
[21:22] {BetaHound> But what cost surprise - for the little it gained us.
[21:22] {BetaHound>
[21:22] {notyoueither> yes. grog is near deification among many of our citizens.
[21:23] {BetaHound> So - other than drastically altering your building queues, and killing grog, and forcing you into the GL, it would seem no damage done. Other than to the relationship.
[21:23] {notyoueither> yeah. so far.
[21:24] {BetaHound> So - options - where could we go from here?
[21:25] {BetaHound> We = Vox and GS.
[21:25] {notyoueither> very good question.
[21:26] {notyoueither> many on our side are confident. that leads to a conclusion that we need concessions to consider peace.
[21:27] {BetaHound> Ah. That won't be popular amongst our folks.
[21:27] {notyoueither> i didn't think so given the current situation on the map.
[21:27] {BetaHound> But - despite the unpopularity - what would you see the concessions being.
[21:28] {notyoueither> well. speaking only from the pov of the doves...
[21:28] {notyoueither> land. a lot of it.
[21:28] {notyoueither> the hawks would not approve of me talking to you.
[21:29] {BetaHound> But what will you do with that army - help on the continent?
[21:29] {notyoueither> help what? they seem to be busy building. gow? war with what army?
[21:30] {BetaHound> Let me put it another way.
[21:30] {notyoueither> there is rp to be wary of. they have a harbour... ships... not far from us.
[21:30] {BetaHound> Mere survival does not interest us.
[21:31] {BetaHound> So - if we were to call off this war - we need a good alternative. And peace is not it.
[21:31] {notyoueither> you want to accomplish something. understood. and reasonable.
[21:31] {notyoueither> you propose we go romping on Bob?
[21:31] {BetaHound> Our fist choice was Bob.
[21:31] {BetaHound> first
[21:31] {BetaHound> So - yes.
[21:32] {BetaHound> I doubt they will stick together.
[21:32] {BetaHound> We only need one to break ranks and it will be three against two.
[21:32] {notyoueither> do you have any candidates for the one to break ranks?
[21:32] {BetaHound> And I don't think Lego will move.
[21:33] {BetaHound> RP to start with.
[21:33] {BetaHound> NeuD and GoW are fairly tight ...
[21:33] {BetaHound> but that has drifted slightly with mav_son in charge.
[21:33] {notyoueither> really, there is a change there?
[21:34] {BetaHound> Me thinks.
[21:34] {BetaHound> But I would not bet my bottom dollar on it.
[21:34] {notyoueither> hmmm. that would be good if they changed.
[21:35] {BetaHound> GoW might be persuadable as well.
[21:35] {notyoueither> there is only one problem with scenario you put forth.
[21:35] {BetaHound> yes?
[21:35] {BetaHound> trsut?
[21:35] {notyoueither> there are only two places for us to expand to. 3 actually, but 3 don;t count.
[21:36] {notyoueither> trust is another hurdle.
[21:36] {BetaHound> Yes - you get all the land south of Elipoils.
[21:36] {notyoueither> you would agree to that?
[21:37] {BetaHound> Depending on the chunk of the continent we took, yes. That was our original plan all along.
[21:37] {notyoueither> we may have a possibility here.
[21:38] {notyoueither> i would imagine the land just off your coast would be the best land for you on bob.\
[21:39] {BetaHound> yup - we know what we want. Trip made it out to be crappy - but compared to what we got - we would be happy.
[21:39] {BetaHound> One minor problem.
[21:39] {BetaHound> No iron.
[21:39] {notyoueither> that is a problem. but one with a solution, perhaps.
[21:40] {BetaHound> We would need a permanent rade deal - which is also yourguarentee that we behave.
[21:40] {BetaHound> trade
[21:40] {notyoueither> that would do it.
[21:40] {BetaHound> hmmmm...
[21:40] {BetaHound> I would miss my daily war reports.
[21:40] {BetaHound> But they are becoming somewhat farfetched.
[21:40] {notyoueither> hehe. they have been great.
[21:41] {notyoueither> the more far fetched the better.
[21:41] {BetaHound> Some allies would be pissed.
[21:41] {BetaHound>
[21:41] {notyoueither> some of yours if we stop killing each other?
[21:42] {BetaHound> yup
[21:43] {BetaHound> So... I guess we both have some thinking and talking to do back home.
[21:43] {notyoueither> hmmm. where are they? i see only vox units at risk, and only vox cities as a prize for us.
[21:43] {BetaHound>
[21:44] {BetaHound> So - do you want me to see if this will fly first with Vox before you tabel it?
[21:44] {notyoueither> unless you count the mad king donegal and his companion.
[21:44] {BetaHound> table
[21:44] {BetaHound>
[21:44] {notyoueither> good idea.
[21:44] {BetaHound> That was aggravating - of all the places to land.
[21:44] {BetaHound> It forced us into moves we would not have made.
[21:44] {notyoueither> i will tell you two things that may influence your team, and you will know as soon as you get the save.
[21:45] {BetaHound> so - how bad was it?
[21:45] {notyoueither> not bad... per se.
[21:45] {notyoueither> good for us though.
[21:45] {BetaHound> go ahead.
[21:45] {notyoueither> we completed Sun Tzu's
[21:45] {BetaHound> GL no doubt.
[21:45] {notyoueither> and your stack of 7 immortals have almost all been pinged.
[21:46] {BetaHound> pinged??
[21:46] {notyoueither> none lost, bust most have hits.
[21:46] {notyoueither> there is 1 down to 1hp. you knew that.
[21:46] {BetaHound> yup
[21:46] {notyoueither> 5 more are down 1 pip.
[21:47] {BetaHound> catapults - or did you lose any swordsmen.
[21:47] {notyoueither> that would be classified, but when 5 units are down 1 pip each, and none have been promoted, it points to something.
[21:48] {notyoueither> beware the chickens.
[21:48] {BetaHound>
[21:48] {BetaHound> OK - my wife is buf=gging me to go to sleep.
[21:48] {BetaHound> bugging
[21:49] {notyoueither> ok. you sound out your guys. then if positive, I will present to mine.
[21:49] {BetaHound> But I would like to know what bufgging is...
[21:49] {BetaHound> OK - will do.
[21:49] {notyoueither> sounds like a married thing.
[21:49] {BetaHound> Thanks for the chat.
[21:49] {BetaHound> It is.
[21:49] {notyoueither> thanks to you too.
[21:49] {BetaHound> We will stay in touch.
[21:49] {notyoueither> you bet.
[21:50] {BetaHound> Limited crwod conversation for now - OK.
[21:50] {BetaHound> crowd
[21:50] {notyoueither> i say nothing to noone until i hear from you, or our next turn.
[21:50] {BetaHound> Otherwise personalities seem to get in the way.
[21:50] {BetaHound> OK - take care nye.
[21:50] {notyoueither> you too. g'night.
[21:50] {BetaHound> Have a good one.
[21:51] * BetaHound has quit IRC (Quit: )
Session Close: Thu May 01 21:59:02 2003

[notyoueither]

Received from Beta Hound:

Options
.. are under heavy discussion within Vox. There is agreement to 'cool it' until decisions are reached. I cannot counsel you one way or the other regarding further attacks on General Jon and the boys - as this may all come to naught. And I would not want to be seen as using our chat of yesterday as a ruse to get our troops out without further damage. However, it would be a postive sign - but that will be difficult as you cannot engage your team in a discussion until we have reached some kind of verdict. Hmmm...

Two other points. You asked last night if we were aware we had broken a NAP. To be honest - we are checking back in the agreement to see what it says. We clearly understood. nonetheless, that we broke the spirit of the agreement.

Also - further to our discussion of last night and possible future options - check out what the military advisor says about the size of our armies relative to the rest of the world. When we were building our army - RP had the biggest - and we left them behind many turns ago.

Thank you again for the chat last night. Cheers .. Beta.

[notyoueither]

Replied to Beta:

Got your message. Don't have a lot to say at the moment. Good idea not to treat our discussion as definitive yet. I am waiting to hear from you as to the views of Vox.

[notyoueither]

Received from Beta Hound:

Greetings nye. This is an official message from Vox. We would - ah - very much like to discuss the cessation of hostilities. There will be considerable bloodshed in the next few turns if we continue at war. Now - I admit - bloodshed is nothing new to us in this war - as we have done most of the shedding - but it might get particularly gruesome over the next few turns.

We also admit that you have us somewhat over a barrel here - (we are crying 'uncle' quietly) - so we are asking very politely and with humility for a peace discussion.

I will be around later this evening to discuss.

Sincerely - Beta.

[Shiber]

From an ICQ chat with Eli:

Btw, brilliant move in the Demo Game.

[ManicStarSeed]

Regarding Peace

People of Vox:

Gathering Storm acknowledges your offer of peace. Be assured that Gathering Storm is considering it. Please understand that there are many in the Storm that will accept nothing less than an unconditional surrender. In other words peace on our terms, Are you still willing to talk peace?

We can't hold up the game discussing it, and so we played the turn. If you really want peace, may we suggest sending us a formal proposal, and using some of your teams time on the clock to do it, so that we may have time to properly discuss it (your time, plus the time between us, plus our time)? Please understand, however, that hostilities in the game will continue unless and until a formal deal is reached.


Regards
Mss, Ambassador to Vox
Gathering Storm

[nbarclay]

Message from BetaHound. Note that the inner quote is what Beta originally sent MSS.

Hi Nathan. Sent this to MSS but he has not opened it yet. Normally I would not sweat it, but MSS had mentioned allowing time for debate.

BTW - we also considered putting a NAP agreement in for an extended period of time - and we are willing to do so. We just didn't think it would carry much weight with you guys given our recent - er - indiscretions. But that is also possible.

... Beta.

BetaHound wrote on 06-06-2003 07:58:
Greetings MSS. There has been much discussion within Vox. We understand your position as stated in your letter.

To start the discussion, we would propose:

Vox makes a public announcement of its agressive and back-handed attack on GS. A public mea culpa.

Vox relinquishes rights to all lands in South Estonia. (ie south of Elipolis)

Vox gifts the City of Dissidentville to GS.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Regards ... Beta.

[nbarclay]

I sent Beta the following:

Message received. I just posted a poll to determine whether Gathering Storm would be willing to make peace with Vox still sharing the continent with us.

The big problem with trying to establish peace at this point is that your deception leading up to the war was too good. After your "Please buy our map so we can have the gold to defend ourselves when we try to settle Bob again" bit, what could you possibly say that would leave us confident that you won't attack us again if you see a good opening? I'm sure you can see the dilemma we face in that regard. (By the way, this is from me personally to help clarify what's going on, not an official GS message.)

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Message from Jon Miller:

Beat said he sent you a peace treaty proposal (or someone on your team)

he wasn't suppose to do that (we hadn't decided yet on what terms we would stick in it)

he was suppose to say that we were interrested in a peace treaty and would like to begin talks on it

Jon Miller

[ManicStarSeed]

What I sent to Vox...during RPs turn

People of Vox:

We understand that your previous offer was pre-mature as you have not actually decided to offer it. Though promising, we did not discuss the offer in detail as it was not actually offered.

The people of Gathering Storm have a specific question to the people of Vox.

Are you willing to leave this continent for peace? We are putting together a proposal (which includes assistance from GS) but do not want to insult your honor by offering it without knowing it is welcome?

Answer in your own time.

Respectfully
ManicStarSeed of Gathering Storm

[ManicStarSeed]

I wanted to include this in my last PM, but forgot.... Consider it in effect until we agree otherwise....


Please understand while we discuss possible peace, that hostilities in the game will continue unless and until a formal deal is reached.


Mss

[nbarclay]

Here's a message from Jon Miller. I'm a bit slow posting it thanks to getting totally absorbed in my "Total, Eternal, Forevever War" (AU 208).

I think that discussion has been born out to ask if you would be willing to accept peace with the concessions as laid out in Beta's email

if you could pass this along to the relevant GS thread I would appreciate it

Jon Miller

(Edit: Corrected the AU course number)

[Theseus]

Huh?

I'm the same, btw... between AU 308 and starting the MZO game tonight, and RL... I would rather put ALL ELSE aside, and live for GS!!!

[ManicStarSeed]

From Beta...

Understood.


ManicStarSeed wrote on 08-06-2003 19:30:
I wanted to include this in my last PM, but forgot.... Consider it in effect until we agree otherwise....


Please understand while we discuss possible peace, that hostilities in the game will continue unless and until a formal deal is reached.


Mss