Dimplomatic Scholia: Ambassador's Office - Vox Controli

[nbarclay]

Message to Vox regarding Literature and Horseback Riding:

Greetings,

Literature is on its way; it's up to you whether you want to get it now or later. One thing we've been thinking is that if you would send us back Horseback Riding right after we send you Literature (so the gifts look like a single trade deal from an outside perspective), it would look to anyone who is watching (and able to watch) as if we made some sort of deal involving Literature and Horseback Riding. That might cause problems if GoW catches the arrangement and regards its expctation for you not to sell Horseback Riding as still in effect after all this time, but at least it doesn't leave the appearance of techs flowing every which way as gifts between us. If you think that sounds like a good way to handle things, please send us back Horseback Riding when your turn comes. (We're starting to get tired of GoW's pestering us to buy Horseback Riding from them.) If GoW specified a particular time limit on your not selling Horseback Riding, though, we probably ought to abide by it.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Response to my message above:

Greetings to you as well, Nathan.

I think the Literature and Horseback riding deal works well. We are in no great hurry for literature, so we can wait a few more turns to further obfuscate things. Gow did not put a time limit on the no-trade matter. They wanted a chance to negotiate directly with you - which from the sounds of it, they have had a couple of chances to do. But we can wait a bit longer.

Regarding GoW, I am recommending that we buy MapMaking from them for cash. I suspect I can get it 40 gold, maybe a bit more. This has several advantages. The first and most important to both of us in the long term is that it will further camouflage our tech agreement. Secondly, it gets us around the no-trade time limit, which is not part of our treaty, but which is being imposed by GoW. And thirdly, from Vox's perspective, it will do a little fence mending with GoW after certain issues arose regarding dealings with Lux.

May I also suggest that as we both have a stake in this, that GS contribute 20 gold to this purchase. I know I had recommended that you forward 20 gold to Lux as part of the previouslly proposed agreement. If you did in fact forward it, then the smallish treasury we obtained from Portia would have included it. If not, may I ask that you consider the merits in sharing a part of this purchase.

Incidentally - when GoW asked about trading techs, we told them that we had major indecision in techs, had to restart research, and are a long way from completing anything. You are the only ones who are aware that we are researching philosophy, and that it is almost done.

And again - we need to discuss what would be in the alliance's best interests for Vox to research next.

The international fall-out from the demise of Lux has been limited, and the reporting very balanced. Vox is relieved to get on with 'normal' business. The last few days have not been happy ones at Vox.

Trust all is well with you and the GS team.

Regards .... Beta.

[nbarclay]

Message from Beta mostly regarding what to research next:

Hi nathan. Just a confirmation that we have 1 turn to go to Philosophy. We will need a new research path next turn.

Construction - Currency - or Polytheism?

Any idea who is researching what on the continent? GoW is finishing map making - that is all we know.

... Beta.

[nbarclay]

Message to Vox:

Greetings,

We have a clue from Trip that someone is researching Construction, but we don't really know otherwise. I think at the moment, GS is leaning in the direction of thinking Polytheism might be a good choice, if only because with your relatively low research speed, it's something you could get in a reasonable amount of time. (No offense intended; just realistic evaluation.) Also, it occurs to me that there's a chance all three Bobian civs mght neglect Polytheism since it doesn't really do anything directly, leading to a possibility of a trade without having to give up Republic.

If we come up with any other thoughts before you play your turn, we'll let you know, but I wanted to go ahead and make sure you have our current thougts now.

Oh, and whoever sent Horseback Riding last turn forgot to click Accept before sending it. Please don't forget with Philosophy or it will mean a one-turn delay for Republic!

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Message from BetaHound:

Hi nathan. Accepted horsback riding. And I would have sent on Philosophy but we still have one turn to go. My apologies. I replayed my previous turn to see what happened. It says one turn to go, I was doing some tinkering, and checking back to make sure it was still one turn - but I didn't check back after the last adjustment - 2 turns. AAARrrgh. My humble apologies. It has not been a good week.

I'm sure we try your patience as an ally, sometimes. You have to believe me when I say this is not intentional. Maybe we should have spread out some of those strategy forum players onto the other teams. I am learning to be a more 'technical' player, but I still make mistakes. Sorry about this.

BTW - RolePlay is giving us grief over the literature trade. They gave us grief previously regarding Lux. As did GoW. And we have made our cash offer - 40 gold - to GoW for map making.

Again - my apologies. I know this error cost both our teams.

Regards - Beta.

[nbarclay]

Messages from BetaHound:

Hi nathan - GoW is making some very unreasonable demands regarding Map Making. Are you Ok with us offering them literature as part of a trade, or were there strings attached to your trade with RP.

RP is giving us grief about trading with you for literature by the way.

...Beta.

And a few hours later

Hi nathan - philosophy was offered and accepted. We have started Polytheism.

We may have reached agreement with GoW for map making. Not sure yet. Will keep you posted.

... Beta.

[nbarclay]

My reply to BetaHound:

No strings were attached to our Literature deal with RP, so it's up to you how you want to handle it. Good luck with your diplomatic juggling act.

Nathan.

[nbarclay]

From BetaHound:

Good morning nathan.

Some interesting news for you and GS.

First - GoW inexplicably gave in on the map making trade and agreed to trade it for 40 gold, after their initia unreasonable demands. We will proceed with this. I ask you to consider again about sharing in the cost of this transaction, given its benefit to the partnership.

Secondly - GoW has asked us what we would be willing to trade for philosophy and contact with Legoland. The first point would indicate that another civ has researhed philosophy, or they may want us to believe that so we wil then try to market ours for a cheaper price. Any thoughts?

The Legoland contact I expected. A Lego galley is on its way up the north side of the continent Bob, from what I can surmise in my recent discussions with Lego. I don't think it is worth giving up much in retrurn for this contact. they will meet Vox soon enough, and then we will both have contact. I have also impressed upon the Legolanders not to get 'burnt' in any early trades with the first civ they meet, by paying too high a price for a tech which is readily avaialble to the rest of us. They understand the logic.

Also - Neu D is giving us grief over harboring Lux, and we may have some fence mending to do their. Their main issue is the cost of the war to them, with no return.

Trust all is well with you - take care. ... Beta.

And from Jon a little while later:

Lego has philosphy and gave it to GoW

since we don't have that advantage, we would like to try and outsell GoW so as to get more trades for GS/Vox

Jon Miller

[nbarclay]

My response to Jon:

Go for it, and good luck! Sorry about not getting back to you more quickly.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

New message from Jun Miller:

Hey GS

we are currently researching poly

we are tryingto work out some trade deals for it in advance (Which is neccesary, see below for reason)

we were wondering if you would split the costs of mapmakingw ith us (20 gold)

lego is coming down, we will soon pass you contact with them

we do have a slight problem though

bascially all 3 teams on the continent are researching our 3 possibilities (construction, currency, and polytheism), and we are starting later than them, so I am unsure if we can beat them (Although our tech speed is similiar to a couple of them)

that is the reason we are trying to work out a trade in advance

Jon Miller

[zeit]

Our proposal: revising tech partnership:

Respected BetaHound of Vox Controli.

Greetings from the Gathering Storm. I bring you this offer, a revision of our current tech sharing arrangement. You have already brought up this idea to Shiber in a chat you had, so I’ll go straight into the deatails:

1) The treaty lasts for a period of 20 turns.

2) in that period of 20 turns, VC gives the GS 12gpt.
3) The GS shares with VC the techs they have researched or have purchased, as soon as the GS acquires the techs, as long as these do not fall under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with other teams, in which the GS has agreed not to trade these techs onwards.
4) Out of all the techs given to by the GS in the 20 turn period, Republic, Currency and Construction will be for VC use only- and will not be traded by VC to any other team.
5) VC will share with the GS it’s free medieval technology.
6) The treaty can be renegotiated after a period of 20 turns.

I consider this arrangement to suit the current developing situation better than the one we’ve had so far and hope you find it acceptable. Please try to reply as soon as possible

Cordially
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

[Theseus]

This is really minor:

in 1, "in" should be capitalized.

In 5, it's "its."

Let's send it.

[Edit: Sorry, wrong place to post, and I can't delete it]

[nbarclay]

I just had a chat with Jon, most urgently about the tech deal but also about the situation between Vox and the Bobians. Two main points:

1) Vox doesn't like our proposal because it's a short-term deal with little in the way of guarantees for what they'll get out of it. Frankly, I agree with them. They might come out of it pretty well, but can they be sure they will be better off dealing with us than they would trading their medieval tech for Republic+Currency+Construction+gold to various other teams? I'm skeptical. Keep in mind also that the medieval tech will be a monopoly for Vox, while Republic, Currency, and Construction will be devalued due to wider availability.

2) In case others have missed it (as I had until Jon called it to my attention), there is serious saber rattling in the public PtW DemoGame forum between Vox and the Bobians over Vox's wanting to expand (and maybe already having expanded) onto Bob. Incidentally, that may very well explain the iron colony if Vox doesn't have a closer source of iron: trying to expand onto Bob without immortals would be a bit on the suicidal side. (And if they're expanding in a direction with low corruption, a colony in a place where a city would be essentially totally corrupt may actually make a lot of sense.) I deliberately avoided bringing up GoW's accusations with Jon and tipping Vox off that we've been warned, but we have to consider whether GoW might have an ulterior motive in trying to stir up trouble for Vox with less-than-objective reporting.

Here's the full transcript. (Jon's "I understand" was a response to a PM where I agreed to the chat but warned Jon that I haven't been keeping up much with the diplomatic stuff lately.)

[22:39] [ Jon_Miller > I understand
[22:39] [ Jon_Miller > I spent all my sat trying to keep Vox from war
[22:39] [ nbarclay > Keep Vox from war?
[22:40] [ Jon_Miller > with ND, GoW, and RP
[22:40] [ Jon_Miller > still got to struggle with that
[22:40] [ nbarclay > Is Vox really equipped for war?
[22:40] [ Jon_Miller > fortunatly matters with you are easier
[22:40] [ Jon_Miller > Vox?
[22:40] [ Jon_Miller > yes, I think
[22:41] [ Jon_Miller > (we have heard tales of 6 swordsmen comming to attack us, we match that)
[22:41] [ Jon_Miller > they aren't near us, it is easier to defend
[22:41] [ Jon_Miller > that is the reason why we are pissed off, they are angry about us setlling open land
[22:41] [ Jon_Miller > anyways
[22:41] [ Jon_Miller > other matters
[22:42] [ Jon_Miller > one thing, we spent 40 for mapmaking
[22:42] [ Jon_Miller > we were wondering if you could cover half, as we have been doing (send 20 our way)
[22:43] [ nbarclay > So far, the idea has gotten a rather cool reception when it's been brought up.
[22:43] [ Jon_Miller > but we paid you for techs you bought in the past
[22:44] [ nbarclay > And we've paid toward tech you bought.
[22:44] [ Jon_Miller > BTW, also we do not have horses
[22:44] [ Jon_Miller > do you have any extras?
[22:44] [ nbarclay > But this is a tech you could have gotten from us, albeit a bit later.
[22:44] [ Jon_Miller > ah
[22:44] [ Jon_Miller > so that is why you are not wanting to give us anything
[22:45] [ Jon_Miller > how about splitting the difference than, 15 per say?
[22:45] [ nbarclay > Why we're extremely reluctant, anyhow.
[22:45] [ nbarclay > I'll check with the team and see what happens.
[22:46] [ nbarclay > On other matters, I should have let you know sooner, but it looks like we'll be trading Republic after all.
[22:46] [ Jon_Miller > yah
[22:46] [ Jon_Miller > we guessed
[22:46] [ Jon_Miller > I have heard that you guys want to remake the deal (for a while)
[22:46] [ nbarclay > Lego was in a position to research Republic about as quickly as we could, which would have left us with almost no time with a monopoly.
[22:46] [ Jon_Miller > we understand (I think, I need to recheck)
[22:47] [ Jon_Miller > yah, because they had philosophy
[22:47] [ nbarclay > Right. Which spoiled our advantage.
[22:47] [ nbarclay > Do you have any idea how big a disparity there is between your research capacity and ours?
[22:47] [ Jon_Miller > yah
[22:47] [ Jon_Miller > we have been putting some in money recently
[22:47] [ Jon_Miller > because of the issues elsewhere
[22:48] [ nbarclay > Even aside from that, I bet your GNP is down around 20 or less.
[22:49] [ Jon_Miller > I doubt it, I will check
[22:49] [ Jon_Miller > yah
[22:50] [ Jon_Miller > arround 20
[22:50] [ Jon_Miller > where is yours at?
[22:50] [ Jon_Miller > (our annalysts could get a round number bsed upon tech research speed, so you would be giving away little)
[22:50] [ Jon_Miller > (BTW, on the horses, could we ahve any?_
[22:51] [ Jon_Miller > (trade for any.._)
[22:52] [ Jon_Miller > you there?
[22:52] [ nbarclay > Sorry, I was trying to hunt down my latest screenshots.
[22:52] [ nbarclay > Let me put it this way. Our GNP is more than double 20.
[22:52] [ Jon_Miller > ok
[22:53] [ Jon_Miller > thanks
[22:53] [ Jon_Miller > on the horses (it is looking like war)
[22:53] [ nbarclay > Which makes a "trade all techs" deal rather asymmetric in the long term.
[22:53] [ Jon_Miller > right
[22:53] [ Jon_Miller > we were hoping to catch up
[22:54] [ Jon_Miller > but we just got farther behind
[22:54] [ Jon_Miller > because of how it was leaning our way (We gave you more) at the beginning
[22:54] [ Jon_Miller > it is evenish now (don't know exact numbers)
[22:54] [ nbarclay > Once you get Republic from us, the balance will be very clearly in your favor.
[22:54] [ Jon_Miller > but if the deal doesn't change, it will not be evenish in the future (Although monotheism will help)
[22:55] [ Jon_Miller > no it won't (I don't think, howmuch is republic?)
[22:55] [ nbarclay > 28 if I remember right.
[22:55] [ Jon_Miller > I think it is a little in your favor now (with what we gave you recently)
[22:55] [ Jon_Miller > ah, so probably 20 or so in our favor
[22:55] [ Jon_Miller > for past trades that is a lot, in the future it is less so
[22:55] [ Jon_Miller > but you are right, the trade deal needs to change until we get our research up
[22:56] [ nbarclay > We aren't in a position to trade horses to you at present. That's as much as I feel comfortable saying, maybe even a little bit more.
[22:57] [ Jon_Miller > well, can you sell troops?
[22:57] [ Jon_Miller > they have horses, we do not
[22:57] [ nbarclay > I'm not aware of any way to sell troops in the game.
[22:57] [ nbarclay > Just workers.
[22:57] [ Jon_Miller > ah, ok
[22:58] [ Jon_Miller > I know you could in Civ2
[22:58] [ nbarclay > Too bad that's not what we're playing, huh?
[22:58] [ Jon_Miller > well, are you aware of the new trade deal sent our way?
[22:58] [ Jon_Miller > (from GS)
[22:58] [ nbarclay > (Then again, I've never played Civ 2.)
[22:59] [ nbarclay > I've skimmed the offer, but haven't really kept up with the conversations leading up to it.
[22:59] [ Jon_Miller > one thing I don't like about it is that it is 20 turns..
[23:00] [ Jon_Miller > in tech speak, even for you, that is not long
[23:00] [ Jon_Miller > I want something longer term (to replaec our current long term item)
[23:00] [ nbarclay > Can you give me a minute to look back over the details of the proposal?
[23:01] [ Jon_Miller > actually there are many things I don't liek about it
[23:01] [ Jon_Miller > aure
[23:02] [ nbarclay > Okay, I've looked it back over.
[23:03] [ nbarclay > What are your concerns?
[23:03] [ nbarclay > (Besides the 20-turn time frame.)
[23:03] [ Jon_Miller > the NDA part
[23:04] [ Jon_Miller > it any a way makes it so that you can just skip giving us anything as part ofthe deal (besides what you learn yourself)
[23:04] [ Jon_Miller > and since we can't trade what we get from you, the usual ways for us to get things are far more limited
[23:05] [ nbarclay > I can double-check, but it seems implicit from the wording that you'll get Currency and Construction.
[23:05] [ Jon_Miller > well, ok, yah those to are given
[23:05] [ Jon_Miller > nothing else is
[23:06] [ nbarclay > True.
[23:08] [ Jon_Miller > you have to see that we are concerned about that
[23:08] [ Jon_Miller > since we can get those two on our own (Already had a deal for them)
[23:08] [ Jon_Miller > so we are just getting republic
[23:08] [ Jon_Miller > and so the deal isn't in our favor
[23:09] [ nbarclay > I agree that if you'll be getting Currency and Construction elsewhere, that seriously undercuts the premise the proposal was based on.
[23:09] [ Jon_Miller > we won't if you are getting them
[23:09] [ Jon_Miller > but we were getting them elsewhere (we had two sources)
[23:10] [ Jon_Miller > and because there were two sources, we were getting them for fairly cheap
[23:10] [ Jon_Miller > because of us geting the medival tech
[23:11] [ Jon_Miller > we could do the deal for a bit longer (the reason why you are getting currency and construction before us is because you finalised a deal first)
[23:11] [ Jon_Miller > and we could trade our MT for other techs, and keep the deal sort of even
[23:11] [ Jon_Miller > but after that, ..., we would be behind, and not catching up for a while
[23:12] [ Jon_Miller > so see, this is not fair to us
[23:12] [ Jon_Miller > at this time, maybe after we give you the medival tach
[23:12] [ nbarclay > Part of it depends on how you define "fair".
[23:12] [ nbarclay > We definitely need to give you a better deal than you'd get elsewhere, in my opinion, though.
[23:12] [ Jon_Miller > (if you think of it, currency and construction you are getting from republic, we could likewise get techs fro monotheism)
[23:13] [ nbarclay > Agreed.
[23:13] [ Jon_Miller > and so that exchanege is fair
[23:13] [ Jon_Miller > but because of the rest of the deal (we pay, you give us nothing)
[23:13] [ Jon_Miller > the deal is not fair
[23:14] [ Jon_Miller > I don't know if it is getting late for you
[23:14] [ nbarclay > What would you consider fair?
[23:14] [ Jon_Miller > and you said you are not as involved as you once were
[23:14] [ Jon_Miller > but could you take my points back to the economic council?
[23:14] [ nbarclay > I need to sign off soon, but I can take your concerns back to GS for consideration.
[23:15] [ Jon_Miller > we could say that the tech deal is ended after the next trade (monotheism, for currency + construction + republic)
[23:15] [ Jon_Miller > but I think that would be in your favor a bit
[23:15] [ Jon_Miller > take my point that monotheism brings techs with it
[23:16] [ Jon_Miller > in trade...
[23:16] [ Jon_Miller > just by trading it we can get construction, republic, currency, plus money
[23:16] [ nbarclay > Agreed.
[23:16] [ Jon_Miller > why shoudl we give you monotheism, plus money, plus not being able to trade for contrsution, republic, and currency?
[23:17] [ Jon_Miller > ok, that is my point
[23:17] [ nbarclay > Strictly in terms of costs, I don't think it would be in our favor, but in terms of trading power, it would.
[23:18] [ nbarclay > (And it might very well in costs after factoring in devaluation due to multiple civs' having a tech.)
[23:19] [ nbarclay > On the other hand, if we would guarantee you at least one medieval tech we research, that would likely flip things back the other way.
[23:19] [ Jon_Miller > not if we don't trade it
[23:20] [ Jon_Miller > what I am imagining is this
[23:20] [ Jon_Miller > GS gives Vox all tech
[23:20] [ Jon_Miller > Vox gives GS first medival tech
[23:20] [ Jon_Miller > Vox does not trade any Tech
[23:20] [ Jon_Miller > hmm, I am not sure on the last
[23:21] [ Jon_Miller > doesn't trade any tech gotten from GS?
[23:21] [ Jon_Miller > Vox gives GS some money (none for the first 20 turns, more later)
[23:21] [ nbarclay > None for the first 20 turns has to do with military expenses?
[23:21] [ Jon_Miller > it is renewing (just with changes in the ammount given GS prt turn)
[23:22] [ Jon_Miller > not really, I Think we would be even for the first 20 turns
[23:22] [ Jon_Miller > (how many techs will yuo learn in that time)
[23:22] [ Jon_Miller > ?
[23:22] [ Jon_Miller > but somewhat yah, at least right now we need the money
[23:24] [ Jon_Miller > that's just my initial suggestion, I and GS can talk more about it later
[23:25] [ nbarclay > I haven't run projections on when we expect to research what, and some will depend on whether we face special military expenses of our own.
[23:26] [ Jon_Miller > who would you be fighting?
[23:26] [ Jon_Miller > (understand, we have special interest in this)
[23:27] [ nbarclay > Understood.
[23:27] [ Jon_Miller > if it is a bob nation, there might be common interest
[23:27] [ nbarclay > Our most immediate concerns are defensive in nature.
[23:28] [ Jon_Miller > well, as are all natinos
[23:28] [ Jon_Miller > (except maybe GoW and ND)
[23:29] [ nbarclay > LOL.
[23:29] [ nbarclay > But you may be right, for all I know.
[23:30] [ Jon_Miller > RP apparently control them
[23:30] [ Jon_Miller > or so we have heard
[23:30] [ Jon_Miller > we hope it is wrong, but they seemed to be encouraging them (despite having no stake in the area) in the recent issues
[23:31] [ nbarclay > You think RP is encouraging GoW and ND to come after you, or some such?
[23:31] [ Jon_Miller > I think it is a possibility
[23:32] [ Jon_Miller > why else would they be so interested, when they aren't in the area
[23:32] [ Jon_Miller > and they are diffinitely against us (in retoric)
[23:32] [ nbarclay > What interest have they been showing?
[23:32] [ Jon_Miller > they were part of all the dicsussion we have had to try and keep from war
[23:33] [ nbarclay > But does that mean they were trying to encourage war, or to discourage it?
[23:33] [ Jon_Miller > deffintiely encourage
[23:34] [ Jon_Miller > you can read their retoric in the forum
[23:34] [ Jon_Miller > (togas and the like)
[23:34] [ nbarclay > They have posts in the general forum trying to egg war on?
[23:34] [ Jon_Miller > when a GoWer or RPer speaks wrong, RP (offically) puts a stop to it
[23:34] [ Jon_Miller > I think so, I coudl check again
[23:34] [ nbarclay > Speaks wrong?
[23:36] [ Jon_Miller > well, one RPer was on our side
[23:36] [ Jon_Miller > until he was breought heavily into line
[23:36] [ Jon_Miller > and RP calls GoW pact brother
[23:36] [ Jon_Miller > for an example of how close they are (while telling Genghis to do something)
[23:37] [ nbarclay > I just took a quick glance at the PtW DemoGame forum and noticed some of the saber rattling. I've been away from there too long and hadn't realized what was developing.
[23:37] [ Jon_Miller > there is a lot o fit
[23:38] [ Jon_Miller > and I and Beta ha e spent hours trying to avert war
[23:38] [ nbarclay > I can believe it.
[23:39] [ nbarclay > I assume you've reminded them that Bob was originally a four-civ continent, so you're just claiming a piece of the territory Lux no longer requires?
[23:39] [ Jon_Miller > all day sat too
[23:39] [ Jon_Miller > I dodn't get to go outside during the day time
[23:39] [ Jon_Miller > yah, we ahve, and we have been poiting out that there is a _lot_ of empty room (They claim none)
[23:40] [ Jon_Miller > and that the area that we are colonising is _4_ squares from our capital)
[23:41] [ nbarclay > Definitely closer to yours than to any of theirs. Have you done anything toward trading maps? Map exchanges could serve as a "put up or shut up" regarding their claim of desperately needing the territory.
[23:42] [ nbarclay > (By the way, I have little doubt that GS would regard Bobian maps as something of value if you can get them, although I can't say how much value.)
[23:42] [ Jon_Miller > we have explored some
[23:42] [ Jon_Miller > they deffinitely have more than we do
[23:42] [ Jon_Miller > (you sort of know how much we do..)
[23:43] [ nbarclay > I'm thinking more in terms of in the future if you can trade for Bobian maps.
[23:44] [ nbarclay > Just something you might keep in mind if the opportunity arises.
[23:45] [ nbarclay > Well, we've been chatting over an hour, and that's longer than I'd intended. Anything else before I sign off and let GS know of the problems with the proposed deal?
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > no
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > it has been good
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > we shoiud probably ahve stopped a bit ago
[23:45] [ nbarclay > Okay, it's been nice chatting, and I wish I had more time.
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > yah me to
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > I need 50 hour days
[23:45] [ Jon_Miller > (That is not counting work)
[23:46] [ nbarclay > That would be nice, wouldn't it?
[23:46] [ nbarclay > Bye.

[zeit]

A report from BetaHound:

Hello zeit

Jon has asked that I update you on our political and military situation - such as it is. We don't know how much of this is going to spill over onto the rest of the world, so thought it best that you know what is up.

The public forum is pretty accurate so far if you can read through the clutter. We landed with two immortals, a spearman and a settler. Against GoW's recommendation - and in the face of much rhetoric from both GoW and NeuD we built a city. The logistical reasons are obvious. The land is good. We can see wine which would be had with our next city. And a nearby river for a third city and irrigation. And it is very close to our capitol.

All is fine - except that we are clearly not welcome. I have been negotiating hard for three days now. The first session involved GoW, RP, and NeuD. All three wanted us off. NeuD is very adamant - almost xenophobic about this. GoW is very aggressive but political. And RP goes along with the other two and tells us we should be worried. But they are clearly on the sidelines. They warn us of what happened to Lux, and that we don't want to tangle with the two 'sharks'. Maybe our decision on Lux has cursed us somewhat. Ah well. This meeting was before we built - and GoW had the impression, as did the others, that we wre leaving.

The next two meetings were with GoW alone. After we had built. The first one was very messy. Lots of posturing, etc. And lots of threats. It took me 20 minutes of back and forth to get him and UnorthO and Donegeal et al back on to the issue. Which is basically under what conditions can we stay on Bob. First it was a flat out 'no'. Then, there were some very unreasonable demands. But then we got down to some reasonable debate, and based on the conversation I had with Ghengis tonight, we may have reached an agreement with them. They sometimes speak for NeuD , or suggest what they think they will be acceptable to NeuD, so it is murky at best as to where NeuD stands. NeuD has been less than receptive to talking until we are off Bob and the city dismantled. What you see in the forum is pretty much what they are like in person.

But we are getting close to an agreement; and the temperatures are cooling somewhat. This may cost us some gold in the long term, and us selling our free tech much cheaper than we wanted, but it should get us a foothold, and hopefully avoid a messy, and more importantly, costly war. GoW has horsemen in the area, and they report that NeuD is on the move with swordsmen. We are going to take the precaution of re-inforcing our city on Bob in case this does not work out. We appreciate that this may be a case of 'throwing good money after bad', but we also suspect that there is just a bit too much posturing going on. It is clear that GoW does not have iron, and GoW stated that six NeuD swordsmen were coming our way, in a further effort to impress and scare us. So if the peace does not hold, and this gets messy again, we will find out soon enough if they are bluffing.

We are working on both an expansion and an exit strategy for Bob - hoping for the former, but understanding that we may have to resort to the latter. Wish us luck.

On more domestic issues, I understand that we are reaching agreement on a new tech trading deal - which is great. I think that our agreement to-date has been beneficial to both of us, and will continue to be so into the future.

I will keep you posted on Operation "Bob's Your Uncle" as it develops, and in any poilitical and military intelligence we glean from this somewhat bizarre experience. We would sincerely appreciate if you could keep us informed if you hear anything from the civs directly involved, as well as RP and Lego.

Good to talk to you. Trust all is well with you and the leaders and citizens of GS. Cheers! ... Beta.

[zeit]

A reply to Beta:

BetaHound of Vox Controli.

Thank you for thank report, the team is very interested in this kind of information. So far most of what we have is from the public board- and this is not a very dependable source, nor as informative as first hand report. The news we saw on the board were worrisome, and it obvious there was plenty of tension. Your
report, however, did inspire a bit of optimism. Although we understand your claims for the land beyond the strait- for all the reasons you've mentioned, we also believe that some diplomatic effort prior to the landing would have made things easier for you, and far less dangerous.
Please give us any information you think is relevant, and willing to share- we have discovered that knowledge of the political situation on Bob is very important, and helps us shape a better foreign policy.
Are you implying RP is the puppetmaster on Bob, or simply has great influence? GoW has made great effort, in the beggining at least, to raise a strong front against you- i think this is another sign of their weakness, and that's one of the reasons they wouldn't object their bigger "pact brother" using his influence...

As for the tech partnership- i hope you can see our difficulty in this: We produce far more commerce than you have, add to that the your obvious need for cash for warrior upgrades. I think you have explained to Nathan your understandable difficulties, at this time, to keep up with our research capacity, but please take ours as well when you review our proposals. Also- Please inform us of any deal which includes techs you're involved in, as this would help coordinating our dealings with the Bobians.

Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm