Great Embassy: discussion on first contact

[Meshelic]

Ok, the first question is: What do we do in the cases of first contact?

The 2nd questions is: What should our response be based on the team we encounter?

I'll keep updating this post up top. I'm hoping that we can formulate a strategy on (a) how we approach first contact initially and (b) which strategy to use for each foreign team, based on the information we already know.

This is essentially just a quick reference thread for the Diplomatic Scholia for the time when we make contact.

Here's what we know so far, or what information has been posted:


LUX INVICTICA
1. Has already made contact w/ the Demogyptians
2. Has possibly made a trade w/Demogyptians
3. Is apparently looking for a tech partner
4. Probably will trade geographical information

DEMOGYPTICA
1. Has already made contact w/Lux Invictans.
2. Has possibly made a trade w/Lux Invictans
3. Requests map information from us for trade purposes

GLORY OF WAR
1. Has apparently not made contact w/anyone.
2. Are mercenaries and can be payed in cash/tech/artillery units...

EDIT/ add (3) for Demogyptica....

[alva]

What do you mean by trade?

If you mean ingame, that is higly doubtfull, unless they
started 2 tiles apart .
No road, no trade....

Good thread idea though

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alva
What do you mean by trade?

If you mean ingame, that is higly doubtfull, unless they
started 2 tiles apart .
No road, no trade....

Good thread idea though

Given the time they took, I think there's a strong possibility of a tech trade between them, and conceivably a more extensive consideration of what their long-term relationship should be.

Speaking of tech trades, civs that participate in the tech trading game will have a major advantage over those that don't.

Nathan

[alva]

oh, I wasn't questioning if they are or arn't doing tech trade.
I do think they are, afterall, being able to do so this early, is to the advantage of the both of them.

That's why I asked, what he means by trade..

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by alva
That's why I asked, what he means by trade..

Sorry for not being more specific, when I said "trade" I meant it more as "whatever trade ability they can use" like trading techs, etc.

I can see how my statement might have been confusing...sorry.

[DeepO]

So, my first question: can we somehow see what kind of techs a team has upon first contact? I tried it in a test game to myself once, and I couldn't find out... I could offer things, but not ask for things. Maybe I was wrong or didn't look hard enough (the game ended when one scout took my the other capital), so if there is some kind of possibility please speak up.

Second question: do we want early tech trades, and if so, are we going to trade military techs? I favor some non-military tech trades with about everyone (although the GoW doesn't seem a good partner in any case), military however is something completely different. And not all techs are equal either, so some kind of price has to be set on them internally (maybe expressed in gold, like 'at this stage of the game, literature is worth 250 gold to us, while monarchy is 350. Our map costs 1000, a small city 5000)

I don't think tech trades are immediately needed at first contact, unless we are ending a tech that turn, and need to trade one to proceed one level. Otherwise this is not such an ultimatum thing. And if we encounter someone who already is in contact with another team we haven't met, I would be very carefully with tech trades: the middleman will benefit gigantically.

DeepO

[alva]

So, my first question: can we somehow see what kind of techs a team has upon first contact?

As far as I can tell, you can see what tech you have, that the other one doesn't has, but you can't see what he has, that you don't have
(don't tell me this explanation isn't perfectly clear )

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alva

As far as I can tell, you can see what tech you have, that the other one doesn't has, but you can't see what he has, that you don't have
(don't tell me this explanation isn't perfectly clear )

That's how it looks to me as well, which is a seriously annoying discrepancy from how SP works.

I'm really not sure we can afford not to play in the tech trading game. If others do and we don't, we could get left in the rest of the world's dust so that the only way we'd have a chance of catching up would be to use our WCs to extort.

In terms of economic vs. military techs, a lot depends on the situation. But the last thing we want is for other civs to buy the military techs we could have sold them from someone else instead. If that happens, they get the tech anyhow, and we get nothing.

Nathan

[zeit]

I agree with Nathan, we can't afford ouselves to stay out of the tech race. As for military techs, maybe on a tech for tech basis, but in the event we won't find anyone for long when others have, we must, IMHO, trade for whatever we can, unless we want to be taken as "the lost civ", being probably last in the tech race. Although our position might allow us a precise early strike against our closest neighbor, we can't rely on extortion alone.
We better get a clear picture of who knows who, and the trades taking place. We must judge the situation according to how the others are doing it since we wouldn't want to stay behind, nor being the 'suckers' that sell military secrets, but i'd suggest the early meeting will include a tech trade.

On this note, i think that the little 'army' of warriors we have gethered so far will help us in the effort of staying ahead, for the following reasons:

1)if there are barbs at all we'll probably find one, and maybe get a tech.

2)we might find more then one civ early on, which means we can become a middleman in tech trades.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by zeit
2)we might find more then one civ early on, which means we can become a middleman in tech trades.

Our map position is completely wrong for becoming tech middlemen, unless our neighbor to the north (assuming we aren't on an island) completely blows it in regard to exploration. And even then, our status would be temporary at best.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Yeah, a middleman position seems not our option, except if we would get some early galleys going (which I feel we should focus on in all scenarios). Which means we will have to deal with middlemen ourselves.

So far, everyone seems to agree that we should cautiously trade techs, to not fall behind. There is one problem with this (maybe not relevant, though), and that is the shorter lifespan of our WCs and the faster UUs for the 'later' Civs. Might be something to keep in mind during negotiations (when determining a price)

DeepO

[zeit]

I wouldn't agree that we can't be middlman, although our position is definitely a disadvantage, i could easily think of a scenario in which we might have neigbors to the NW and NE, and as said, if we are quick enough with our scouts, we might get a temporary position as middleman. That just might be what we need to keep up with the pace.
Otherwise we have little options, IMHO, except an early strike in the hope of tech gains, to keep up with the race. (unless of course most of the others have started in a similar position).

I hardly think anyone will have that many scouts so early on, and this seems to be our main advantage right now. I'd hate to see it go to waste, but just as you said, our position is a disadvantage in terms of scouting and tech trades, i hope your speculation will turn out wrong in the end...

[nbarclay]

On a pangea map, I seriously doubt that we could slow down the world's overall pace of research significantly by refusing to trade. On a continents map, we probably could slow down our own continent's overall research rate, but doing so would give the civs on the other continent a significant advantage (or deprive our own continent of a significant advantage). Either way, I don't think it's a winning move for us because other civs would be trading while we aren't. We might slow them down, but we'd slow ourselves down more, which would very seriously undermine our WCs' "second life" as knights or cavalry.

Nathan

[alva]

Demo:

Since we havn't seen any Barbs yet, it is more and more safe to say, that there arn't any around ( not 100% ).

As they are the only expansionist civ in the game, they are certainly playing with a handicap.
This isn't noticable yet, and won't be for quite a while, but it will someday

[Dominae]

Some comments:

1. Contacts: no assumptions

We don't know 100% for sure that anyone has contacted anyone. Possible alternative scenarios include they're trying to meet at a neutral spot (like we hoped to do with LI), or they just happened to have internal bugs to work out at approximately the same time. But, I agree, it is something to keep in mind.

2. Tech trading: a good thing

As Egypt, we start with Ceremonial Burial and Masonry. I don't believe those techs to be pivotal early-game techs, so I'm not against trading either away (for a reasonable price, of course). No matter what we plan to do with our neighbors, we should trade techs first above all. This is the way it works in SP, and I believe we should do the same here. Giving up The Wheel is another story...

3. First contact: buy time

I suggest we be cordial but non-commital (other than tech trading) with any civ we contact early. We say something like "we're a little busy coping with this brave new world" or something. This gives us more time to explore and ascertain their relative strength and positioning, and, more importantly, see if whether a third civ is within reach. This early on, what we ultimately do will be a tactical decision, not a diplomatic one (i.e. attack if we can win, trade if they'll put up a fight). Given the apparent size of our island, I'm not comfortable with a long-term trading partner just yet.

4. Intentions: testing out the waters

A possible way of determining another civ's intentions towards us would be to tell them straight up that we have two sets of Luxuries available, and that we're more than willing to trade them. Despite the low difficulty level, I think their reaction to these resources will be very telling of their attitude towards us.

5. Opportunity: first blood

What do we do if we stumble onto a momentarily undefended capital, or Settler, or even Worker? Do we seize the day, crippling our nearest neighbor, or work out a deal? Again, I'm inclined to attack first, because what they can give us at this stage in the game is relatively little. Attacking them first may be mean, but it's still honorable (as far as I know).

6. Diplomacy: three's company

I still think that our overall diplomatic efforts revolve around whether we're along with one other civ, or if there are multiple teams to contend with. Until we know this for sure, I'm inclined to put off anything commital (other than tech-trading), such as warfare and deals.


Dominae