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  • #16
    By the way, the tile Gronk is currently standing on seems to be a pretty good city site. It would have 3 bonus grass and a wheat.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    • #17
      One tile to the north of him seems ok as well (3 from capital), even if we need either a temple, or an neighbouring city to get to the wheat. Gronk's tile is probably best, though.

      DeepO

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      • #18
        The next city down should get the Wheat if the city in question is placed on the Forest instead of the Grassland. Founding on the Forest means a loss of 10 Shields and the possibility of gettting a bonus Grassland, but it means sticking to the 3-spacing plan. As a non-Economist, I reserve my opinion on this one. Just stating the facts...




        Dominae
        And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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        • #19
          I really don't like the idea of founding a city that has to wait until it builds a temple to use the wheat, especially when it will probably have to build a worker before it can build the temple. That's a lot of time to do without the benefit of the wheat this early in the game. Further, I seriously doubt that precise city spacing for military reasons will be an issue that far south.

          Nathan

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          • #20
            Yeah, military spacing wouldn't be that much a problem there... but if we are going south with the second settler, we could use it anyway. North seems to make the best 3rd city region, but we still need to find a juicy spot there, whereas to the south we seem to have the space for a few good cities early on. If both our settlers were to go south, I'd vote for the forest tile. Otherwise Gronk's tile seems best.

            DeepO

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            • #21
              I like that gold hill to the north. With the floodplains up there, we will have food, and we can pretty quickly use that tile and get the boost to our already solid commerce.

              I'm not entirely sure the wheat city should be #2... maybe, maybe not. More exploring still necessary. But my concern is that we will (most likely) have competition to the north, and not to the south.

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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              • #22
                Revealing more of the map will be a good help.

                Remember, the 2 spacing was partly for military, but largely for total production power at size 12. A large part of the assumption was that the game would most likely be decided long before Sanitation.
                (\__/)
                (='.'=)
                (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                • #23
                  nye is right. Depending on how much space is available down South, a tight city spacing may be efficient in the long run, regardless of the benefit of an extra couple turns of Wheat. Plus, spacing the cities out now will only result in lower productive power later on.

                  I know I'm pushing this idea, but a Worker farm on or around the Flood Plains may be quite useful. A Worker farm is much like a Granary in that it stunts early growth, but speeds it up immensely a few dozen turns down the road. The farm would be in between our normal spacing, and would be disbanded once it's no longer needed. Since Worker farms need production in addition to food, maybe leaving the Northwest forest uncut is a wise choice for now.


                  Dominae
                  Last edited by Dominae; December 12, 2002, 23:51.
                  And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by notyoueither
                    Revealing more of the map will be a good help.

                    Remember, the 2 spacing was partly for military, but largely for total production power at size 12. A large part of the assumption was that the game would most likely be decided long before Sanitation.
                    It doesn't take precise spacing to have the ability to juggle tiles so size 12 corresponds closely with the use of all available tiles. Actually, with how narrow our land mass is, we'll probably need a little bit tighter spacing on average to take advantage of all available tiles including coast and sea at size 12. Our planned pattern assumes cities competing for tiles in all directions, but there are no cities out in the ocean.

                    By the way, a few cities from now, building a city on the gold hill could be interesting. Such a city could use flood plains for growth and mines in the surrounding hills for production. The nice thing about building cities on gold hills is that the gold is available immediately without sacrificing growth.

                    Nathan

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                    • #25
                      nathan, that goldhill seems not easy to combine in a tight spacing, I was checking if it would be possible to have an incense-city. Maybe both are possible

                      As to the tighter spacing on a small landmass: I don't completely agree. Sure, we could build closer to have all tiles worked, but I don't mind if some of the ocean tiles aren't used. They are only good for commerce, and not for growth nor production. If we want to use all of them, it means a lot of our cities won't have much production.

                      I agree on expansion to the North, but not for our first cities if it would mean that they can only produce a settler each 30 turns. OTOH, it would be foolish to squander shields just to keep to our spacing too. Could Gronk move 4 to see if the tile to the West of the weath is a plain grass tile? If so, that one, the forest tile, and the tile South of Gronk seem 3 good city sites, with 2 spacing and good production and growth.

                      DeepO

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DeepO

                        As to the tighter spacing on a small landmass: I don't completely agree. Sure, we could build closer to have all tiles worked, but I don't mind if some of the ocean tiles aren't used. They are only good for commerce, and not for growth nor production. If we want to use all of them, it means a lot of our cities won't have much production.
                        Keep in mind that most cities can't grow past size six until Construction. So what tight spacing provides is nearly full utilization of land tiles near the capital early and then nearly full utilization of both land and coast tiles as cities grow to size 12. And remember, while coast tiles produce no shields, they're some of the best wealth generators in existence. Such tactics are my standard operating procedure when I start in an area like this with a huge amount of coast in SP, and they work well for me. (In SP, I normally want to use most of the coast tiles at size 12 but am content to leave sea and some coast unused until I start growing past size 12.)

                        Nathan

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                        • #27
                          Oh, I agree... I think I didn't make myself clear. I too like the 2-spacing algorithm best, but I wouldn't go closer (to 1 spacing) just so we can use all sea tiles. If all our cities are at size 12, I don't mind missing a few (not too many, of course) sea tiles.

                          And water is good for commerce, I said that before, but without decent production it will take us 40 or 80 turns to build a library. We should try to have at least the possibility of production in most of our cities.

                          DeepO

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                          • #28
                            By "all available tiles including coast and sea," I was referring to all tiles within the radii of cities that can reasonably be built with a target eventual city size of 12. Get into too tight a spacing and cities won't be able to reach that size.

                            In regard to production problems, if cities can get a temple, a marketplace, an aqueduct, and a library in place by the time they shift their work force from land to water, they aren't in too terrible a shape even with very little production from then on. Still, I like the idea of coastal cities' having at least two or three land tiles to work if practical.

                            Nathan

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                            • #29
                              So... we're trying to sell each other his own idea I agree, Nathan, on all counts. Sorry to have misunderstood you.

                              DeepO

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                              • #30
                                If spacing refers to the number of tiles in between cities, it probably will take a bit of "1 spacing" to take full advantage of the coast and some of the sea, since coastal cities don't have as much competition for tiles. But the deviations in spacing need to be selective and planned out (and probably won't fit our original "ideal" pattern especially well since coastal cities by definition have to follow where the coast goes).
                                What we may want to do is draw up maps and play with different city positionings once we get the area to the south fully mapped or are about ready to send a settler down (whichever comes first).

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