Science, the early ages

[alva]

discuss in here how we should handle science in the early stages of the game

[Arrian]

Honestly, some of this depends on civ choice, which has yet to be made (I know, we're leaning toward the Iroquois, but AFAIK that isn't final). A civ's starting techs really can change how you go about things.

Also crucial are our neighbors, with whom we can either buy/trade tech, or from whom we can take it. I would LOVE to have India nearby. If we were say, Egypt we could trade masonry + gold for alphabet, then beat writing out of them, while beelining up the Monarch route. Writing could be important if we have a mix of humans and AIs on our landmass - embassies will allow alliances. It would be wonderful to sick the Romans on somebody (such as.... Lux whateverthe****) and hit them at the same time. Muwahaha!

It appears unlikely that we will be a scientific civ, and BW is KEY. Therefore, I would argue for BW as our first research goal if we're not sci. If we encounter a sci civ, definitely trade for it. It's a helluva lot easier to hold off barbs and/or early human rushes if we have spears. It also allows the Colossus and it's on the way to IW.

-Arrian

[zeit]

Arrian- remember, we don't actually need and Embassy to have an alliance with a human civ- we could email the team and make the agreemen while bypassing those game mechanics.
But, i'm not sure of this will be allowed- but IMO it should, as i can't see any real reason why we need to have an embassy with a player- that's just some game mechanic to make you sweat a bit and reach those otherwise less-useful tech. We should bypass those mechanics whenever possible to make the game smoother and more fun.

As for BW- i see this as a must early on- against barbs and any unsuspected early strikes from a warmongering civ, but should be prioratized depending on our standing, especially against barbs, as we might find that we actually don't need real defense early on, and trading for it could be a better course of action, especially since we'll probably chose the Iro's, our early ancient miitary will be a mobile attack force rather than strong defensive one, so this advantage in the field of mobility should also be considered against investment in spearmen units.

[Arrian]

Mobile units are very effective, particularly against the AI, but if we find ourselves near a human opponent, we will face counterattack by THEIR mounted troops. MWs (again, assuming I lose the civ choice debate) die horribly when they are defending against horsemen.

On the embassy thing, I was limiting that to a specific circumstance: an AI civ with an ancient UU on our continent AND a human team we want to kill on our continent. Then an embassy could be a huge advantage (or lack thereof. If the other team has an embassy and we don't, we could wind up getting kicked in the ass by Immortals or somesuch thing).

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Regardless of civ, I think The Wheel and Iron Working should be top priorities. If a resource-denial attempt works (no Iron for Persia), bye-bye neighbour (hopefully human, but AI will do). Coupled with the Expansionist trait, this early science push allows us to be the first to know where all the Ancient resources are on the entire continent. Very important.


Dominae

[Arrian]

True. I would advocate bronze -> iron, hoping for the wheel from a hut if we are the Iroquois.

If we are Egypt, I'd probably advocate bw, iw first, but I could see doing the wheel first.

If we played Persia, we could choose IW right off the bat, and consider an very early immortal strike if the situation is right.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

With Persia I always prefer to wait a bit with those immortals, save some money, rush the first civ with either archers or horsies, and mass upgrade warriors when they will come through best. You can of course research IW quickly, which is especially useful to see you're not resource denied, but in that case I wouldn't connect the iron at the first chance you got.

Bronze would in all cases be high on my list of techs we need, after which choices depend somewhat on which civ, and which map we get.

Long term goals idem: the two main goals would be Monarchy or literature, but it depends on the game which of the two to go for.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Yeah, we will have to decide relatively early on whether we're going the Monarchy route or the longer, more involved, Republic + Literature route. Hopefully, by the time we've researched BW we will have an idea of the lay of the land, and can make an informed choice based upon geography, neighbors, etc.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

We have a GREAT start!

This, btw, is exactly why I wrote the thread "Managing your civ for the benefit of your UUs" here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69016

I *cannily* did NOT write about Egypt, although that's what I was originally thinking of, in regard to this game.

Does this starting position impact our research path? Obviously we need to explore some, but based on the initial terrain I could make an argument for starting with The Wheel...

***IMPORTANT***

Whatever we select to research, don't forget that in PTW you can start researching ON THE SAME TURN as you found the capitol.

[Harovan]

I second The Wheel. That's usually my first choice if I'm Egypt. Even if I'm not Egypt, because it's (except Japan) not a tech civs start with, but SP rules don't count here.

[Theseus]

I would think the other civs will EAGERLY want to trade for it, but no one else gets the immediate benefit we do.

[alexman]

The Wheel sounds good.

Definitely not Bronze Working because all AI civs immediately research that tech first and we might be able to get it for cheap after we have made a few contacts.

[Theseus]

Uh... what AI civs?

GS: Egypt - Ceremonial Burial and Masonry
Vox: Persia - Bronze Working and Masonry
Lego: Carthage - Alphabet and Masonry
GoW: China - Warrior Code and Masonry
Lux: Ottoman - Bronze Working and Masonry
Demo: Arabia - Pottery and Ceremonial Burial
Roleplay: Spain - Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial

1) I say we avoid researching anything that another civ already knows.

2) We KNOW we're going to want The Wheel inside of our first three techs.

3) That's an awful lot of plains... I predict horses to the SW of our capitol.

[notyoueither]

It will be forever before we have contact with any civs but our neighbours.

Civ contacts are guarded almost as closely as Maps in most MP games. Especially all human games. btw, this makes Map Making a priority for obvious reasons.

We will have to research Bronze ourselves, most likely.

[Theseus]

Sorry, nye, I wasn't clear... I am focused for the moment on just the first couple of techs. When I said "I say we avoid researching anything that another civ already knows" I was really just referring to the first tech research choice.

Once we know who our neighbors are we can develop a better long-term research strategy.

I wouldn;t be shocked if we were able to trade The Wheel for BW, especially considering that 4 out of 6 competitors have later-stage horse UUs.