What about tech then?

[DeepO]

Maybe we should start focusing on that more. As usual, our diplomacy is behind our play... the relation with GoW has been very good so far, but both sides seem to grow more cautious of the other.

Maybe we should start with making future deals with GoW. If we really want them to be an ally, there is one thing that they will really want: Computers before the war with Lego is over. MIs are powerful things, and it would certainly be a sign of good faith if we share it with them. It could be the beginning of a tech deal.

Nonetheless, I would prefer Miniaturisation (Thanks CH ) as our next tech... if at all possible to be traded with Rocketry or Nuclear power from GoW. I'm not certain if that will be possible, though... the tech is most useful to us, because of the combination of Internet and extra spt in our coastal cities. GoW should not be allowed to race for the Internet (obviously), and doesn't nearly get the same benefit in production as we would do.

Which is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the main disadvantages of going for the tech next. We can't sell it that easily as e.g. nuclear power.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

It sure seems like it cannot hurt us to mention some possible deals with them after the war or towards the end of it.

Until we see how the war is going, it will be hard to commit much. I think we can plant the seed about making life easier for them by helping them with ND.

We do not need to have any ND land, so we can be generous (presuming no resource issues occur). That should sound good to GoW.

[Aeson]

Whether or not we can get a tech alliance is unknown. That we need to is basically a given. Without it we lose, so we have to try.

Our best asset right now is Computers. GoW will want it ASAP to guard against a ND (or GS) backstab, and to keep their losses on Lego as low as possible.

I think we should offer it to them in conjunction with a further tech trading agreement designed to distance ourselves from ND. This (will be) a 3 way race. The guaranteed way to lose a 3 way race is to get in a fight with one of the others and let the 3rd play unhindered. So will GoW want to break an alliance that makes it a 2 way race just to spite us and created a different 2 way race? At that point we won't be able to win, but we can pick between the other 2...

Of course they may just pass on the opportunity, at which point we at least know what we are up against ASAP.

[DeepO]

I agree on Computers, but I really don't want to give it to GoW before we are absolutely certain they are invading Legoland, and not Stormia.

Also, I prefer instant payment, and no buying on credit. I'm sorry, but the farther this game progresses, the less I trust GoW. And you're right, if we don't get a positive answer right now, we know we're next to be attacked...

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think it should happen before we attack. If we give GoW Computers and they happen to be attacking us, it doesn't really help them because we can be assumed to be toast. 2v1 with half our forces 3 turns away from our homeland. MI's or not it's a losing cause.

For the same reason I have no qualms about giving GoW the tech before we get a tech from GoW in return. Simply put, we have to have an ally to get us to a 1v1 situation to win. All other options are losing ones.

[DeepO]

hmmm... good point. However, we will only get Computers in 2 turns, being 2 turns from D-day... they will face the same chaining problems as us. And we should also spell out to them that in case they show MI to ND, ND is going to want them as well, and ask for the tech as well... tricky situation at any rate.

If both us and GoW get MI, we basically tell ND that we're in a long term alliance, and that they are next. This could become very dangerous fast for GoW... but maybe it would also be the trigger we need to start a world war, where we might be able ot take a back seat and watch the Bobians fight it out. As long as we can be sure Lego is no longer a threat, this might be a very good thing...

DeepO

[vmxa1]

While what Aeson is saying is correct, we do have a problem if GoW pops up MI right away. The problem is ND will be wanting them or know they are it.

The only way this could be avoided (other than not giving MI to GoW) is get GoW to not upgrade any infantry, until D-Day +n. I would think n could be 2 or 3 turns. They would of course be free from that waiting period, if attacked by either us or ND.

Do you think that would make them feel like an ally and safe? It would cost them a few units, that they mite not have lost if they had MI, instead of infantry, but that is not a big price.

Beside, they may not have the cash to upgrade anyway. It would tempt them to slow their research for upgrade money.

The problem with complex deals, is trying to make them via posting. You can not easily relay your thoughts fully. That and we do not have that much time to stike a deal.

[DeepO]

I don't know, vmxa1. I wouldn't buy a tech (even for a future tech or so) if you can't immediately use it. But you're right about ND... which is basically what I said above.

Also, I wouldn't mind selling ND tanks... but if we choose for GoW as a long term ally, it means it's the last tech we can sell (not that bad, as GoW can also sell them radio so we wouldn't get much of a price anyway).

This is all becoming quite complex. But maybe, we should just have some rough idea in our minds on how we want to progress (e.g. long term GoW tech-ally, try to get to uranium and aluminum asap, deal with ND later), and talk to GoW first. They too can see the problems with getting MI, and quite possibly they would want to postpone that for their own safety. (Strange... not getting a defensive tech sooner, out of fear for a surprise attack.) But at that moment, it's their choice, and not ours.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

At least having it in your back pocket to be used if attack is better than not having it at all.

Anyway, all it really is about (to me) is trying to get them to see us as their best best and not as their next threat.

IOW, they do not have to even buy the tech, just to know we are willing to trade it to them should be reassuring.

[DeepO]

That, I can certainly agree to. Us not offering Radio must have sounded threatening to GoW... let's not make the same mistake with Computers.

But I still see them invading us, instead of Lego. In which case, MIs are going to be the only thing which might buy us enough time to return our forces out at sea

DeepO

[vmxa1]

While that may come to pass, to me we can dismiss it. The reason is that if they do not come in with us on Lego, we are out of the game anyway.

There are not many shots at stopping Lego and if no one joins in now, Lego wins. GoW cannot win with our land and will still have ND sharing Bobian.

[DeepO]

okay, do we need to start drafting a message to GoW, or wait for other members to post their views? This is all rather delicate, I wouldn't improvise when telling something to GoW about future tech deals...

DeepO

[vmxa1]

We need more input I would say. Especially from those that have been dealing with GoW. As you say it is a tight rope act and could be mishandle with ease.

[alva]

For those that don't (often) wander of into the OT:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=147

Better read it..
It's about Vel.

[vmxa1]

That for the heads up, it is very depressing.