Turn 195: 800 AD

[DeepO]

Metallurgy to RP: turn 197, so in 2 turns time. After that we can immediately follow with Steam. And I'm thinking of having some of our worker force divert to their side of the Elipolis, to quickly RR it. I bet they will be surprised to see we can RR their whole territory (without the hills) in 2 turns time

DeepO

[DeepO]

X-post... yeah, we can. I would do it before we start on our hills, if we don't really need them (like needing one more shields for perfect shield counts on buildings).

Once we have Rep. Parts, hills and Mountains, and foresting should be a breeze.

I also counted, and we have some 300 shields in not-planted-yet forests. If chopped wisely, this can be a major boost for our empire, right when we need it.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Something else: The values of lux for Vox.

Seeing as they are currently at 208 gpt (or bpt), we should be able to figure out how much a lux is worth to them.

Let's say that 2 lux makes it possible for them to get from 20% lux on their slider to 0%. They are making 208 gpt, of which some 50 is upkeep and maintenance. So 150 gpt, 20% of which is 30 gpt... their gain for 2 lux would be 30 gpt. So... it is not unreasonable to ask for 20 gpt for 2 lux, being 10 gpt per lux.

This will change rapidly once they have more pop in their cities, increasing their commerce. But I think that asking for 5% of their GNP per lux is not unreasonable... and we can negotiate from there (up to 2-3% of GNP per lux perhaps).

DeepO

[DeepO]

Cort, it is the turn after next that we can give Metallurgy, not next... we're bound to the NDA by one more turn!

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

PM's sent to MZ@GoW and Togas@RP (see log).

I told Togas we could send them Met' next turn (196) as that is stated in the trade thread, and asked about maps.

To MZ I suggested the San + Rep Parts for Indust + Corp, with us gifting them Electricity.

[DeepO]

Cort, in the trade thread it is said that the NDA is turn 196 (inclusive), so we can only trade it on turn 197. Or did I read that wrongly?

DeepO

[DeepO]

I keep on finding nice things to count

We have 184 pop, in 20 cities. Using 204 tiles
GoW has 149 pop, in 24 cities. Using 173 tiles.
ND has 123 pop, in 22 cities. Using 145 tiles.
Lego has 150 pop visible, in 19 cities. Using 169 tiles (Visible!)
Vox has 45 pop, in 10 cities. Using 55 tiles.
RP has 36 pop, in 5 cities. Using 41 tiles.

GoW is almost certainly #3 in GNP and M.Goods, ND #4. Land area is something else, but I don't think ND is currently so much in front of GoW, the thing is of course that they still have a lot of land to settle...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

OK, T197 it is I'll PM Togas the correction.

GoW agreed to a modified version of the tech deal - swapping Sci Meth for Indust, which MZ explains in the chat (see log).

1. GS send GoW Electricity on our next turn
2. GoW research Rep Parts while GS do Indust
3. GS research Corp
then it's Sanitation + Rep Parts for Sci Method and Corporation
4. We each take one of Refining/Steel

I took the risk of agreeing the deal, as it looked an OK modification, and I didn't want this going back and forth until it's too late. I hope that's OK.

[Cort Haus]

Industrialisation is devalued by 20% as GoW and Lego both have it now - will that get us it in 4 turns?

[DeepO]

One sec, have to calculate the tech cost... it might help us in getting the tech one turn sooner, but as we can't build any factories sooner, I'm not sure we should do it.

As to the rest of the tech: I'm worried. Lego gets Medicine, Vox has medicine and elec, ND is doing everything... where is GAUL? I don't mind having ND in the loop, but something is mighty stinking here: GoW is getting money from everywhere, and the only ones doing research double are Lego and us. We're being shafted.

I do object to Sci Method to GoW, out of principle. In general, I of course agree, it is one of the least valued techs. However, we need to have that branch for us. In no circumstance can we give AT and Electronics to anyone else if we want to have a decent shot at tanks and an invasion. I don't like GoW having SM, as they will trade it to ND in a heartbeat, being the tech whores that they are. It might be unavoidable, though

No, I don't like the situation, it's not going ideal (we had our share of luck lately, so I'm not complaining). Lego going for Indus means they were almost certainly tipped we were pushing hard for ToE. We're kind of forced to take Sanitation, which we can't use for another 12-14 turns. We can't sell Indus, as everybody already got that from Lego (GoW is bull****ting us by saying they require it for Uni Suf, as they could also get Indus from us and build it instead without delay.) The only good point about all this is that they didn't realize we were willing to give Elec to them, and now they're trading for it.

We need more clear deals with GoW and ND, we need GAUL. We're in an advantage here, but if we don't use what we have, we're going to fade away and give the game to someone else. I kind of regret ND getting closer to GoW again, as otherwise we had a clear goal.... get both Lego and ND. Now, if we take Lego but need to help ND in getting there, we lose our advantage... and the most we can get is half of Lego's territory.

Anyway, I'll send Elec to GoW, and will check on tech cost. I would like to have one thing, though, and that is a written agreement from GoW that they don't trade Elec to Lego. If Lego is no longer the enemy in the Bobian eyes, we're going to be the enemy...

DeepO

[DeepO]

As to cost: it will be very close, but we might be able to do it in 4 turns. We need 2304 beakers, which we can currently make running a 38 gold deficit (so 38 gold we don't have), but we have a uni coming online next turn, and that might have just enough effect to be able to end in 4 turns at 21 gold in treasury.

Any way, I'll see what we can do, but my guess is that it will become 5 turns anyway as we need some cash (we have nothing), with the exception that if we can sell Elec to ND, we can do it in 4.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Radical idea:

Why would we not offer Electricity to Lego, in exchange for their industrialization? Everybody else is whoring tech, we can play the same game...

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

yes, send a feeler lego's way, just to see what happens.

[DeepO]

Okay, I'll wait until noon tomorrow CET before I send something, if anyone objects by then, please speak up! I'll think of it as well, I'm not certain of this. But as long as we keep the distance between us and Lego as big as we can, I don't really see a reason not to do it.

Except of course, that it means that any invasion plans for Lego have to be moved forward by 4 turns, as the eta of their marines move forward as well. But looking at when we'll be building what, I think we can make that.

If we propose this to them, I would like to have us at either 0%, or 10% science next turn on Indus. If we don't get an answer from them in time, we won't lose time on research ourselves... and we'll need the cash anyway, as we're running dry. 10% would cost us 40 gold if we get Indus anyway, but one turn later... will have to think about this before playing.

So any other comments on this? If we ask them to trade Elec for Indus, we have to deliver as well. Also, there is a price difference, which we would more or less be dropping: Elec is worth 480 beakers more then Indus. We might ask for compensation, but we can't ask for much...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Message sent to Lego. Let's see what they respond...

DeepO