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  • Holy sh*t!

    Received from Arnelos.

    notyoueither,

    I'll copy for you the same report I made to my team, with an addendum of what I'd like to request of you:

    My chat with Sharpe from Legoland...

    LEARNED FROM SHARPE:

    - After Gathering Storm allied with Roleplay Team, Legoland allied with Glory of War (for techsharing and luxuries only at the time, no military aid)
    - Legoland was hoping that GoW would eventually turn on ND, but it has become increasingly apparent that Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship
    - Legoland has deployed a sizable number of "LEF"s (Legoland Expeditionary Forces) to GoW and ND territory, for the ostensive purpose of helping to defend GoW from any GS attack, but really were hoping they can be used against ND
    - Legoland is currently providing GoW with their source of iron
    - Both Legoland and GoW have Gunpowder
    - A growing number of people on Legoland have become convinced that Legoland should either be fully nuetral or switch allegiance to an alliance with Gathering Storm against Glory of War and Neu Demogyptica
    - Vondrack, who is both Foreign Minister and de facto leader of Legoland, is strongly in support of the Glory of War alliance (which he negotiated)
    - Tiberius and lmtroops have sided with vondrack on the matter
    - Sharpe and Nimitz are the most Pro-RP/GS. Kloreep and ZargonX are nuetral, along with most of the rest of the team's semi-actives. They are generally much more Pro-GS/RP than Pro-GoW/ND in terms of personal sentiment, but have been willing to continue following vondrack's pro-GoW policy until recently.
    - Part of the problem, according to Sharpe, is that vondrack has been guilty on at least two occassions of ignoring ministerial orders or the results of voting and when he handles the save doing what he wants instead. vondrack quit the Presidency the last time it happened, but now that Legoland no longer has an official Presidency and vondrack is handling the saves by default, he's basically doing what he wants to keep the game moving while his team spends forever just discussing and not deciding.

    WHAT I DID:

    - I managed to (very easily) convince Sharpe that we had already LONG suspected that Legoland was GoW's benefactor and the theory was first popularized almost as soon as the war started. I mentioned that MZ's behavior, in pariticular, was seen as a sign by those of us who knew him well that he was very confident of relations with Legoland... which obviously gave us reason to worry. THIS, when shared with Legoland by Sharpe, has apparently had some impact by causing them to spin the conspiracy theory that Glory of War was intentionally attempting to make it known that Legoland sided with GoW, thus sabotating Legoland's relations with RP and GS. To be perfectly fair, while we certainly didn't fully believe that Legoland and Glory of War were allied, we HAVE long suspected that they were in some form of collaboration and MZ's high confidence level about GoW-Lego diplomacy indicated to us, at the very least, that he felt confident that Lego would never help RP Team.

    UPDATE:

    Members of the Legoland team are currently discussiong a potential strategy for Gathering Storm and Legoland to cooperate on reaching to the Industrial Age ASAP and thus make sure that both have railroads and riflemen so that GS' lack of saltpeter doesn't get them run over and Lego's lack of an army (currently) doesn't get them run over.

    -------------

    Another PM to follow that finishes this one...
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  • #2
    cont.

    notyoueither,

    This PM continues the last one

    -----------------------------

    ANOTHER UPDATE:

    Legoland would like to pursue a joint chat with Gathering Storm to discuss the technology alliance idea. I told them which GS members might be good to contact to set that up. Please note that while I certainly understand that RP need not attend if the only area of discussion is technology, I would greatly appreciate being there to continue building on my idea for a Legoland to seek a Legoland-GS Alliance rather than their current aid to Glory of War... a change that could return some semblance of stability to the planet (and help ensure our teams' victory in the present conflict) along with perhaps ensuring an equitable situation for Legoland and GS in the future.

    Please let me know if they contact you guys about this.

    Thanks.

    - Arnelos

    P.S. I'm not holding out great hope for this, but I'll let you know my thoughts on it... If we can convince the core membership of their team (especially ZargonX, who is the other de facto leader) to go along with an idea for a Legoland-GS Alliance, breaking off their relationship with Glory of War, that might be enough to convince or overpower vondrack if he remains committed to helping GoW. Giving the pro-GS faction some ammunition to fire with, like a REAL offer from Gathering Storm that they helped negotiate, might just tip the scales inside Legoland.... as far as I see, we don't have very many other options.
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    Comment


    • #3
      In the light of this, might I suggest the possibility of delaying a landing in GoW territory. We need Lego to break their alliance with GoW, and for that to happen they have to think that we are too weak to be able to fight effectively aganist the 'axis of evil' on our own. Landing 16 units plus later reinforcements in the north when we are apparently struggling in the south might do enough to convice the Lego waverers that we are strong enough already, and that supporting GoW is the best way to maintain the status quo and let Lego win the game.

      Plus, since GoW have gunpowder (and probably saltpetre), we're going to be facing at least some muskets (and upgrades will rapidly be done in any area we are threatening).

      Both of these factors lessen the value of a northern invasion. It may still be the right thing to do, but we should reconsider our options in the light of this new info, IMHO.

      I know the only posts I've made so far on the subject of operation Yellowknife have been somewhat anti-, so I should say that I'm very much in favour of the idea of taking the fight to GoW in the north - I think it is the right idea (taking the initiative, and hopefully getting the chance to do some damage to GoW), but we may need to address the timing and size of the force.

      BTW I've forgotten: do we have astronomy yet or not?

      Comment


      • #4
        [treebeard]
        This is indeed a bundle of news!
        [/treebeard]

        Well, I've been posting in a pro-operation Yellowknife spirit, largely because I wanted us to (a) hit them before they got gunpowder and (b) relieve pressure in the south.

        Now we know they have gunpowder and possibly Lego cash in addition to Leo's, it certainly seems less of an attractive option.

        Comment


        • #5
          Holy Sh*t indeed!!!

          We're doing all we can to prevent GoW and ND from taking all of bob and becoming the superpowers that will win the game while all the time Lego are helping them do this.

          This is crazy what are we going to do?

          This is indeed a very complex situation that needs to be looked at closely.

          We should down play our relationship with RP as best we can, if no one knows they are a GS vassal state we could get a better deal in any solution that is decided upon.

          We don't have astro or invention.
          Are we having fun yet?

          Comment


          • #6


            I can't really comment now, but

            damn

            Comment


            • #7
              "The best way to defeat your enemy is to get them to surrender without fighting.
              The second best way is to destroy their alliances.
              The third best way is to destroy their armies.
              The least desirable way is to destroy their cities."


              - Sun Tsu

              Option 2 looks important right now.

              Comment


              • #8
                ****ing hell!

                Recall the Yellowknife landing. I don't want our boys going up against fortified musketmen.

                Everything to the south. We must rebuild RP!

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hmmm... can anyone confirm, counting beakers, that GoW indeed has gunpowder? Also, did our income # on the F11 screen changed? (I mean the 5 per capita thing)

                  As to the rest: no time to throuroughly think it over. The musketmen aren't the biggest problem in itself, the only thing is that we can't risk them going to cavs before we either damage their core, or have somehow secured saltpeter ourselves.

                  Our main priority right now would be to get an idea on where to find saltpeter, because without it, we won't have cavs either, and could face cavs against our pikes.

                  DeepO

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lego appears to be quite the disjointed bunch. I think we can take advantage. I think its our only chance now, without saltpeter, to exploit this.

                    I certainly wouldn't want to be on a team like lego, where all is controlled by one member and he can blatantly disregard orders.

                    ....

                    Had this news come in two turns, after the landing, we would be screwed, but luckily for us...

                    If GoW has GP, then they will have defense on all unclaimed saltpeter on Bob.

                    I think we should shift the units in the north back south to aid RP, at least the fast movers.

                    Perhaps we could use the money we've been stockpiling to purchase invention and gunpowder and others from lego?



                    This might be another opening to talk to vox.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The more I think on this, the more I don't know how to react. Consider this: If Lego wants to delay us, what would be teh best way of doing so? Telling RP that they might switch sides might do the trick...

                      Can we just go ahead, and pretend like GoW has no GP? no... but can we wait, and risk that while GoW now isn't ready, they will be ready in let's say 5 turns, with musketmen everywhere? No as well.

                      My idea is to go on as planned, but with a bit more caution. Instead of dropping 16 units, followed by some reinforcements, make sure we have 40 to drop at least, and do it asap. In the mean time, use all diplomatic options to get Lego on our side. If they don't meet our interntal deadline, too bad... we can't be stalled in our plans, if we wait until GoW has it's North completely fortified, with cavs closeby, we lose all options (also to get ourselves some saltpeter)

                      DeepO

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good points DeepO

                        This could just be a ruse.

                        OTOH, how would they know that we are nearly ready to land on them?


                        I think if we slow things down a bit (haha) perhaps RP can get to lego before our go-time.

                        We really can't aford to be stalled.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          email from Arnelos:
                          Bad news, folks. Had a long chat with vondrack and he basically lays down the line hard that Legoland isn't going to be switching sides.

                          I'm certainly going to follow up with Sharpe, Nimitz, Kloreep, and ZargonX to make sure this isn't just vondrack speaking for the rest of his team, but I'd say t his is a very bad sign.

                          The fact that vondrack admits that they could be making a mistake does leave open tiny tiny tiny glimmer of hope if we survive in the future, but it's not much of one.

                          Assuming this is entirely legit from vondrack, this closes the matter.

                          I'm going to be sending the save now.

                          vondrack> Hello!
                          Arnelos> hey
                          vondrack> sorry for the delay, my nick got unregistered and I have had to fix things up
                          ..................... (censored ISDG material)......................
                          vondrack> anyway
                          vondrack> that's not what you want me to talk about
                          Arnelos> of course
                          vondrack> I have no good news for you
                          Arnelos> so I figured
                          vondrack> said very briefly, Legoland is not going to help
                          vondrack> actually
                          vondrack> more or less, the only help possible would be direct military intervention
                          Arnelos> I seem to think that Gunpowder would give us a fighting chance
                          vondrack> and we are not going to do that
                          vondrack> I understand you would believe so
                          vondrack> but it's not true
                          Arnelos> at the very least, it might bleed GoW and ND some more UUs
                          Arnelos> and that can't hurt anyone but them
                          vondrack> the map generator screwed some teams big time
                          Arnelos> so I have been lead to believe
                          vondrack> speaking about saltpeter, that is
                          vondrack> though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant
                          vondrack> the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits
                          Arnelos> is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no?
                          vondrack> has nothing to do with our involvement in the war
                          vondrack> ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way
                          vondrack> enough
                          vondrack> though quite inconveniently located
                          vondrack> but that's, as I said, not the reason for withholding our help
                          Arnelos> you're allied to GoW
                          Arnelos> which, if I dare say so, will eventually come back to bite you
                          vondrack> I am sorry, I cannot answer questions regarding alliances Legoland may or may not be part of
                          Arnelos>
                          vondrack> if it was a question, that is...
                          Arnelos> We've actually believed you were allied with GoW for quite some time now
                          Arnelos> QUITE some time
                          Arnelos> here's the thing... you guys helping GoW made a ton of sense, I will admit, when GS entered the war to help us
                          Arnelos> but that's no longer true
                          Arnelos> GS and RP are not winning this war
                          Arnelos> until GoW and ND are re-contained, you run the very real risk that you will help them break out and eventually even threaten you
                          Arnelos> keeping Bob weak and divided would seem the superior optio
                          Arnelos> *option
                          vondrack> it's difficult for me to discuss these things - as I have said, I can't confirm nor dent that we may or may not be allied/friendly/unfriendly/hostile towards another team
                          vondrack> *deny
                          vondrack> so, let's talk academic
                          Arnelos> you do, so for me it's beside the point
                          vondrack> I do what?
                          vondrack> talk academic? confirm? deny?
                          Arnelos> my team is on the brink of either surviving or being killed off... I have no time for academic discussions... you're allied with GoW. I'm trying to tell you, reasonably, that this is no longer a policy which fits your interests. That it happens to be hurting us as well is why I'm saying it, of course.
                          Arnelos> but that doesn't prevent it from being true, either
                          Arnelos> fact is, if ND and GoW actually *win* this war, which is looking much more likely, they will have the power to start looking for other targets
                          Arnelos> and, to be perfectly honest, Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship
                          vondrack> Arnelos, let's not get into this, please
                          vondrack> there is, I am sorry, nothing you can do to change things
                          Arnelos> there is, you're simply choosing not to exercise it
                          Arnelos> the bone-crushing momentum of previous policy
                          vondrack> I meant that you, Arnelos (and for that matter, even me, vondrack), cannot do anything to change the Legoland's decision
                          Arnelos> YOU can't change it?
                          vondrack> it's not that we would be hesitating, still waging pros and cons
                          Arnelos> I have been lead to believe otherwise. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't
                          vondrack> explain, please
                          vondrack> do you think I have any special powers in Legoland?
                          Arnelos> Legoland retains the power of freedom of action... you have it within your power to change course. That you are choosing not to is a choice of your own volition. No-one is forcing you to hold to the present course, with the dangers that lay ahead.
                          vondrack> oh, yes, that's true
                          Arnelos> I happen to believe that you are one of the principle individuals opposed to changing course... multiple individuals from Legoland have mentioned this... that the main obstacle to changing Legoland policy is you.
                          vondrack> ummm... things in Legoland are decided by polls
                          vondrack> my vote is as important as any other
                          Arnelos> while true, apparently you hold more weight over other people's votes than you might assume
                          vondrack> like I can influence them?
                          Arnelos> votes are decided as much by convincing arguments as by anything else
                          vondrack> well, that is often true
                          Arnelos> look... I understand that I come to you as a highly biased source. I obviously have a vested interest in my own team's survival.... that said...
                          Arnelos> that said, it's still true, as I see it, that Legoland is encouraging a dangerous future for itself by continuing to support the Glory of War. It has the rather troubling potential of comign back to bite you.
                          Arnelos> I'm not making that up
                          I understand your concerns. But Legoland is not taking its future lightly. We have been discussing the situation quite a bit.
                          vondrack> And the result was
                          vondrack> (it changed radically after GS entered the war)
                          vondrack> that we chose to not assist you
                          Arnelos> the point is... there is an option you could exercise that would have significantly less chance of biting you back. The word of Gathering Storm is their bond. We have found that they have performed to every letter of our treaties with
                          vondrack> it may have been the wrong thing to do
                          vondrack> (that was about the "not assist you" part)
                          Arnelos> I have discussed the matter with Gathering Storm and they seem willing to sign a treaty with Legoland in which they would bind themselves to an honorable non-aggression agreement if Legoland would cease support for GoW and instead work with us
                          Arnelos> the key of the matter is that where GoW would violate such an agreement in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself, our teams would not
                          Arnelos> I believe we can achieve a genuine commitment to ending the game in a peaceable fashion
                          vondrack> Arnelos, I am sorry I cannot give you an answer that would make you happier - but I am here communicating the stance of my team (though not denying it's my own, too)
                          vondrack> we heard your proposals, your arguments
                          vondrack> you may be right
                          vondrack> we admit that
                          vondrack> but still, we made our minds
                          vondrack> and we are not going to change the decision
                          ............. (removed some irrelevant meta-DG discussion)................
                          vondrack> I have to admit that my interest in DGs
                          vondrack> is getting weaker and weaker...
                          vondrack> I find it difficult
                          vondrack> to pitch myself against other people - not only ingame enemies, but even against my teammates
                          vondrack> if we disagree on something
                          vondrack> (and there were a LOT of times this happened in Lego)
                          Arnelos> indeed
                          Arnelos> on any team
                          Arnelos> hell, we've had two attempted revolutions on this team
                          vondrack> I just hate it when I have to tell you, Arnelos, things I have told you today - yet I have no choice
                          ................ (censored ISDG turn reports discussion)...................
                          ................ (removed some discussion of Legoland members gone inactive)..............
                          Arnelos> and vondrack... something else to mention...
                          vondrack> not too active recently
                          vondrack> yes?
                          Arnelos> I was gone from the time RP and Lego made contact to the GoW-RP war and I know I'm missing whatever element of that may be playing into the current situation.
                          Arnelos> it seems to me that a lot of history happpened in there
                          Arnelos> most of it not good
                          vondrack> most of, actually...
                          vondrack> yes
                          vondrack> that's why I understand that you are trying to fix things now and feel bad for not being able to help you out
                          Arnelos> ah
                          vondrack> but things moved a lot while you were away
                          vondrack> an awful lot happened
                          Arnelos> yeah, it sounds to me like the start-of-game agreement became a rather nasty bone of contention.... it may not be a good idea to sign those in future games... a good leason to learn
                          vondrack> well - the only problem I can see
                          vondrack> might be that you thought the deal was something different from what we thought it was
                          vondrack> we though it was two-way, mutual
                          Arnelos> it was a bit vague
                          Arnelos> ah....
                          Arnelos> I see
                          vondrack> yes, it must have been, I guess
                          Arnelos> the whole thing was like 4 lines
                          vondrack> but the thing is that many times, we felt as if RP saw it as one-way (as in "you still pay for getting Carthage")
                          vondrack> I made a very lame attempt at explaining that in the ISDG thread - but spoiled the whole thing by the part on Togas
                          Arnelos> in effect, the agreement was the "price" for Legoland getting Carthage... which is my point. Looking back, I don't think establishing a debter-debtee relationship like that at the start of the game was productive for relations.
                          vondrack> I later regretted that post a lot
                          vondrack> ah, so - RP _did_ see it as a debter-debtee?
                          Arnelos> yes
                          vondrack> just a sec
                          Arnelos> that was the team's understanding of the treaty
                          Arnelos> that it was the price for Carthage
                          vondrack> do you have the wording of the treaty somewhere?
                          Arnelos> sure... lemme get that
                          Arnelos> We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading).
                          Arnelos> In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above.
                          Arnelos> Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations.
                          Arnelos> Signed in 4000 BC
                          vondrack> yes, that's the text I have always been referring to as well
                          vondrack> so that was not the problem
                          vondrack> the problem is - when you read through it
                          vondrack> what actually came to fruition?
                          Arnelos> I'd agree that RP made more of the "most favored nation" thing than you guys believed it meant... probably plyed on that line a bit hard. That said, many on RP remain resentful in the present conflict of the non-aggression portion (not joining another at war with RP). So all around, there's a resentment that Legoland did not fulfill the treaty, yes.
                          Arnelos> in all, the treaty just didn't work
                          vondrack> the problem is it is not a war of RP against GoW+ND
                          vondrack> not only
                          Arnelos> too vague and too binding on future action
                          vondrack> the GS bit messed things badly
                          vondrack> agreed
                          vondrack> trading civs pre-game for something ingame is just no-no for any future games
                          Arnelos> agreed
                          vondrack> especially if that something is vaguely defined
                          Arnelos> a good lesson learned, as I said
                          vondrack> pity you have to pay so many hours for such a lesson
                          Arnelos> well, I should probably get going, since I have other things to do today. As for you, it's what? 10:30 or 11:30 p.m. there?
                          vondrack> 11:30pm
                          Arnelos> EEST?
                          vondrack> yep
                          vondrack> the time should shift back to normal soon, I think
                          Arnelos> alright, thanks for the chat, even if it didn't work out as hoped
                          vondrack> yeah - take care
                          ........(censored bit of ISDG discussion)...........
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                          • #14
                            The thought crosses my mind that we are being deceived about the status of SP in the world. Just a hunch, but based on our geography...
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                            • #15
                              We can have Invention for 768 out of 1056 beakers.

                              We could likely have GP in 8 or 10 turns with pedal to the metal.

                              vondrack> the map generator screwed some teams big time
                              Arnelos> so I have been lead to believe
                              vondrack> speaking about saltpeter, that is
                              vondrack> though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant
                              vondrack> the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits
                              Arnelos> is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no?
                              vondrack> has nothing to do with our involvement in the war
                              vondrack> ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way
                              vondrack> enough
                              vondrack> though quite inconveniently located


                              We have as much desert as Bob, or very close to it. Vox got screwed with no horses. We have a high percentage of mountains.

                              What do you think the chance is that we do not have SP, as has been reported to us? Slim to none, and Slim is on a horse, heading out of town.
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