RP 70ad

[Shiber]

IMHO we have to stop worrying about our precious units, and start killing riders, because the more we wait, the more room we give them to maneuver. We've already made the mistake of not putting pikes on T2, not realizing that what matters is not to keep our precious Toledo but to kill riders. Now we'll have to grit our teeth and even enter a few battles where the odds are against us just to stop those pesky riders.

[notyoueither]

Gathering on Poly server now.

/join #MilOps right

[Shiber]

Can RP upgrade to knights this turn?
Also, can they rush walls in Barcelona? (shouldn't cost much since it's already two turns away from completing a horseman) If they end up gifting us Barcelona in order for us to defend it, we'll have a much easier time doing so thanks to those walls and the GW.

[Shiber]

Well, they already played their turn...
Could someone post a debriefing please?

[notyoueither]

Session Start: Thu Aug 07 22:58:50 2003
Session Ident: #MilOps
[22:58] * Now talking in #MilOps
[22:58] *nye* hiya
[23:07] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_Civ3
[23:09] *Togas* hello
[23:10] *Togas* I'm still semi-idle, but should be ready shortly
[23:10] *nye* ok
[23:10] *Arnelos_Civ3* where's dejon?
[23:15] *Togas* dejon crashed
[23:15] *Togas* posted a message on the board and called it a night. Just us tonight unless anyone else arrives
[23:15] *Arnelos_Civ3* ok
[23:16] *nye* what is the situation at Leon 6?
[23:20] *nye* brb
[23:21] *Togas* 6 pikes, 8 cats, 6 inf (mostly wounded)
[23:22] *nye* 6 pikes? is that what was left there? signs of them attacking?
[23:22] *Togas* only 1 pike is injured, and it's injured only 1 pip
[23:22] *Togas* all the others are fine
[23:23] *Arnelos_Civ3* how many did we have last turn?
[23:23] *Togas* We need to check the report from last turn.
[23:24] *Togas* we had 7 pikes according to Dejon's report
[23:24] *nye* so, they took a couple of shots
[23:24] *Togas* it appears so
[23:25] *nye* plan for the army there?
[23:25] *Togas* Dejon's reccomended orders are to move the army to the mnts
[23:25] *Togas* he wants to retreat to Pamplona
[23:25] *nye* the cats can't go there
[23:25] *Togas* .... good god, you're right.
[23:26] *Togas* we can retreat behind the river
[23:26] *Togas* but we'd still be in grasslands
[23:26] *nye* yes
[23:26] *Togas* Do you have the screenshot?
[23:26] *nye* what is in pamplona now?
[23:26] *nye* yes
[23:26] *Togas* 4 pikes, 4 horses
[23:26] *nye* you got chivalry, and gold?
[23:27] *Togas* yes
[23:27] *Togas* I can begin with the upgrades now
[23:27] *nye* enough to upg 4 horse?
[23:27] *Arnelos_Civ3* that's effectively 8 pikes, then if we fort the 4 knights
[23:28] *nye* do not upg all
[23:28] *nye* that will switch the barca build to knight
[23:28] *Togas* hold on, brb.
[23:34] *Togas* afk a bit, I need to run to the store
[23:34] *Togas* bb in 20-30
[23:39] *Arnelos_Civ3* ok
[23:52] *nye* ring me in a private window when Togas returns
[00:08] *Togas* 4 back
[00:08] *Togas* nye
[00:08] *Togas* arnelos
[00:08] *Arnelos_Civ3* hello
[00:09] *Togas* Ok, all taken care of
[00:10] *Togas* We shouldn't upgrade all horses to knights?
[00:11] *Arnelos_Civ3* is nye here?
[00:11] *Togas* or should I do so just one at a time?
[00:11] *nye* do one at a time
[00:13] *Togas* All 4 upgraded. Checked F3 each time
[00:13] *Togas* we remained AVE to ND the entire time.
[00:13] *Togas* we are still WEAK to GoW
[00:13] *nye* makes sense, you and nd have sustained major losses
[00:14] *Togas* do you agree that we should pull back our stack?
[00:15] *nye* so, what to do about the army at Leon
[00:15] *nye* yes, but where
[00:15] *nye* do you have an appraisal of what nd might have?
[00:15] *Togas* at this point, with their road connected, we cannot acurately predict what they might have
[00:15] *Arnelos_Civ3* could we pull back 2 tiles and fortify (so cats can be used to bombard any Ansar attack)?
[00:16] *nye* can only move 1 tile, i think
[00:16] *Togas* cannot. No roads. Did we cut those roads?
[00:17] *nye* no, nd did
[00:17] *Togas* they did ...? where did their road cutters go?
[00:17] *nye* you are also in nd territory, so no raod movement out
[00:17] *nye* ansars, one danced back into jungle
[00:18] *nye* the other was a scout
[00:18] *Togas* ah. great
[00:18] *nye* they attacked anohter unit, i think. last turn one of your units poped the scout
[00:19] *Togas* I can move the whole stack 3 ... but it's still 3 turns from Pamplona
[00:19] *nye* yes
[00:19] *nye* if nd can overwhelm the stack, then disband the cats and go to mountain. i think it unlikely they can overwhelm though
[00:20] *Togas* sidetrack: We have 2 wounded Ansars near Sevilla. I have 2 healthy WARRIORS who can attack them
[00:20] *Togas* attack?
[00:20] *Togas* my warriors are regs
[00:20] *Togas* one ansar has 2 hp, the other 3
[00:20] *nye* two wounded ansars? what are theri pips?
[00:20] *nye* well, if you get lucky...
[00:20] *Togas* 3/4 2/4
[00:21] *nye* what do you want to do?
[00:21] *Togas* hell, I'll go for it.
[00:21] *Togas* better that than let them attack the warriors
[00:21] *Togas* better odds at least
[00:21] *nye* i can't think of why not
[00:22] *Togas* damn. Warrior 1 attacks, does no damage. Dies.
[00:22] *nye* any other units in the area?
[00:22] *Togas* ****
[00:23] *Togas* Warrior 2 attacks, dies in attempt, PROMOTES f*cking ansar
[00:23] * Togas ponders abandoning Sevilla
[00:23] *nye* it does not go well. what is in the city north of there?
[00:23] *Togas* Merida, has 1 pike defender
[00:24] *Togas* correction, 2 now
[00:24] *nye* cool
[00:24] *nye* well, what do you think re sevilla?
[00:25] *Togas* it's a lost cause and I don't want to give them the ivory this easy
[00:25] *nye* ok
[00:27] *Togas* it's dust
[00:27] *Togas* any suggestions for our fleet?
[00:27] *nye* i feel for you guys
[00:27] *Togas* I plan to move the Isabella further north
[00:27] *nye* what is the status up there?
[00:28] *Togas* looks like Santa maria died
[00:29] *Togas* Pinta & Nina still alive
[00:29] *Togas* Isabella in the south
[00:29] *nye* can you see anything at start? there should be a wounded gow scow out there
[00:29] *Togas* no wounded ships
[00:29] *Togas* not sure if they would have gone N or S, but I'd like to get the galleys together
[00:29] *Togas* as per Dejon's instructions
[00:29] *nye* where are they?
[00:29] *Togas* I'll move Pinta S to meet up with Isabella
[00:30] *Togas* Isabella is at the peninsula
[00:30] *nye* near port isolation?
[00:30] *Togas* Pinta is 1 1 2 2 from port Iso
[00:30] *nye* Nina?
[00:31] *Togas* Nina 4 7 7
[00:31] *Togas* from Santiago
[00:31] *Togas* just moved it south from ND land
[00:31] *Togas* one vet ND Galley S of Nina
[00:31] *Togas* called the Phobos
[00:32] *nye* we set a galley out to block gow off from port isolation
[00:32] *nye* but, your two galleys together would be good
[00:32] *Togas* btw, our 2 workers near Madrid are done
[00:32] *Togas* I can move them elsewhere now
[00:32] *Togas* suggestions?
[00:32] *Togas* wait, they finish THIS turn
[00:32] *nye* difficult sit
[00:33] *Togas* road shows, but their move is stuck
[00:33] *nye* oh, yeah. i see that
[00:33] *Togas* well, I have less units to move than usual....
[00:34] *Togas* only thing left is the stack. Either attack with it or retreat with it.
[00:34] *Togas* let me write up summary of the stack for our report...
[00:34] *nye* retreat, definitely
[00:36] *Togas* Ok, I will retreat 3
[00:36] *nye* good
[00:37] *Togas* one more order. This is directly from Dejon:
[00:37] *Togas* "General Notices
[00:37] *Togas* No retreating units; retreat phase skipped. Order resolution completed on 07-Aug-2003 at 20:40:29 PDT
[00:37] *Togas* Results, by Power
[00:37] *Togas* Austria
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1. Austria: Fleet alb ? gre Austria: Army bud ? tri Austria: Army ser Supports Fleet alb ? gre
[00:37] *Togas* England
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1. England: Fleet nth ? bel Bounce. England: Fleet nwg ? nor England: Army wal ? lon
[00:37] *Togas* France
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2. France: Army gas ? spa France: Fleet pic ? bel Bounce. France: Army spa ? por
[00:37] *Togas* Germany
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2. Germany: Fleet hol Holds Germany: Army kie ? den Germany: Army mun Holds
[00:37] *Togas* Italy
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1. Italy: Army apu ? tun Italy: Fleet ion Convoys Army apu ? tun Italy: Army ven Supports Army bud ? tri
[00:37] *Togas* Russia
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 3. Russia: Army gal ? vie Russia: Fleet bot ? swe Russia: Fleet sev ? rum Russia: Army ukr ? gal
[00:37] *Togas* Turkey
[00:37] *Togas* Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1. Turkey: Fleet bla Supports Army con ? bul Turkey: Army bul ? gre Bounce. Turkey: Army con ? bul Failed because dependent move failed.
[00:37] *Togas* LOL!
[00:37] *Togas* damn, I did it again
[00:37] *Arnelos_Civ3* LOL
[00:37] *Togas* hold on, let me get this cut & paste right
[00:38] *Togas* Find out what GS' plan is with regard to the Ansars and those Knights. How many more GS units will enter the fray next turn, and where? Thank them profusely for Chivalry, Horses and the gold.
[00:38] *nye* heh
[00:38] *Arnelos_Civ3* doesn't he mean GoW riders?
[00:38] *nye* i think so
[00:38] *Togas* I think so
[00:39] *nye* we are discussing it
[00:39] *nye* riders on mountains is not fun
[00:39] *nye* they could be doing one of two things...
[00:39] *nye* escape into the south (very likely)
[00:39] *nye* maneuver us out of position to get at Pamplona (likely)
[00:40] *nye* what do you guys think?
[00:40] *Togas* I don't know how we're going to hold up if they join attack us
[00:40] *nye* i know
[00:40] *Togas* frankly, I still can't figure out why GoW is doing this. They seem to be furvently devoted to ND
[00:40] *Togas* it's like GoW has no concern about taking cities for themselves
[00:41] *nye* well, we must deal with it
[00:41] *nye* we must deal with 14 riders who are not pinned down on geography
[00:41] *nye* that is no easy task
[00:41] *Togas* if I could only figure out what the true motivations of GoW were. Dejon suggested we make another attempt at convincing them to backstab, and I'll try, but they should have backstabbed turns ago
[00:42] *Togas* is there any deal we both could offer GoW?
[00:42] *nye* i think that maybe...
[00:42] *nye* they have no delution about winning
[00:42] *nye* they are just playing the game, as mercenaries
[00:42] *Arnelos_Civ3* that's my opinion as well
[00:43] *Togas* they have every chance to win, but they are selling themselves short, setting the bar low so that they can claim victory regardless.
[00:43] *nye* maybe
[00:43] *nye* but, if they fight nd, they risk severe loss
[00:43] *Togas* which is nice to avoide bruised egos, but still. it's a difficult foe to negotiate with ... one who does not care if he wins or loses
[00:43] *nye* they have only done safe things so far
[00:44] *Togas* With ND's mil strength = to ours, ND is very weak
[00:44] *nye* yes
[00:44] *Togas* and they've put all of their forces in the south.
[00:44] *Togas* as I look at the minimap I see a huge swath of yellow covering the whole continent.
[00:45] *nye* yup
[00:46] *Togas* Unorthodox sends us a PM asking us to tell him which units "his" Rider kills so he can write it down in his stupid story.
[00:46] *nye* same here
[00:46] *Togas* makes it painfully obvious that they're going to attack us regardless
[00:47] *Togas* for what it's worth, Legoland's army is stronger than us
[00:47] *nye* could you look back and see where you were average?
[00:47] *Togas* but they're going for culture/diplo win
[00:47] *nye* not right now, but that could be useful
[00:48] *nye* how are spirits holding up in the capital?
[00:48] *Togas* not well
[00:49] *Togas* apathy has set in
[00:49] *Arnelos_Civ3* indeed
[00:49] *Togas* The stories have stopped, and we have few new posts other than old folks dropping in and wanting updates
[00:49] *nye* damn
[00:50] *nye* the reports of great quantities of arab blood are not helping?
[00:50] *nye* you must have killed more of them than tey of you
[00:50] *Togas* we seem to spill Spanish blood for in the same amount
[00:50] *Togas* if we have killed more, we cannot tell
[00:50] *Togas* happens during their turns
[00:50] *nye* yes
[00:51] *Togas* unfortunately for us, we cannot replace fallen soldiers like they can
[00:51] *nye* true
[00:51] *nye* and soon, you may need a subsidy to keep your army in the field
[00:52] *Togas* we make 15gpt right now
[00:52] *nye* there was some question of barca
[00:52] *Togas* BCN grows next turn, horseman in 2
[00:52] *Togas* but it is empty right now
[00:52] *nye* cool
[00:52] *nye* we can move troops to cover, to make gow pay
[00:53] *Togas* thanks
[00:53] *Togas* if they take out that harbor, we're in trouble
[00:53] *Togas* however, they don't seem to be going for it
[00:53] *nye* i see. iron
[00:53] *Togas* I believe they will make a major push for our capital
[00:53] *nye* i think so too
[00:54] *Togas* GoW lapdogs right after or before ND attack
[00:54] *Togas* hell, ND could hit it next turn if they want
[00:54] *nye* yes
[00:54] *Togas* probably wait a turn for GoW to get into position then 1-2 punch the city
[00:54] *nye* but, i doubt they have the strength
[00:54] *Togas* Nd does not ... but they have roads to get new Ansars to the front quickly
[00:55] *nye* gow needs 2 turns for the rider stack
[00:55] *Togas* yep
[00:55] *Arnelos_Civ3* any chance we can move our stack back into Pamp before Pamp is hit?
[00:55] *Togas* and we need 2 more turns to get our army back
[00:55] *Arnelos_Civ3* another thing to consider.... are we ingame at war with GoW?
[00:56] *Togas* yes
[00:56] *Togas* we are
[00:56] *Arnelos_Civ3* good
[00:56] *nye* not yet, i don't think
[00:56] *nye* really?
[00:56] *Arnelos_Civ3* check
[00:56] *Togas* not sure when that changed
[00:56] *nye* oh yeah, the galleys
[00:56] *Togas* galley fight
[00:56] *nye* there was naval combat
[00:56] *Arnelos_Civ3* ok
[00:56] *Arnelos_Civ3* good
[00:56] *nye* btw, check happiness in Pamplona
[00:57] *Togas* 2 happy, 2 unhappy, 4 content
[00:57] *nye* unhappy due to?
[00:57] *Togas* damn, we're exporting our only ivory to you guys!
[00:57] *Togas*
[00:57] * Trip has joined #MilOps
[00:57] *Togas* we lost extra ivory when losing Sevilla
[00:58] *nye* damn
[00:58] *Togas* yeah
[00:58] *Togas* how badly do you guys need it?
[00:58] *nye* i'm not sure.
[00:58] *Togas* we're OK with balanced 2 happy, 2 unhappy
[00:58] *nye* i will check. the q would be, how to interupt it
[00:58] *Togas* growth in 6 ... if we last that long, we can deal with entertainer
[00:59] *nye* need a sec
[00:59] *Togas* it's fine for now, you guys probably need that lux more than us

[notyoueither]

[01:00] *Togas* ... when BCN goes to 7, however, we'll have to use entertainer.
[01:00] *Togas* wait. Will it go into disorder next turn?
[01:00] *Togas* or do we have a turn of grace before switching?
[01:00] *nye* check it
[01:00] *nye* you get one turn grace
[01:01] *Togas* we'll do the switch next turn.
[01:01] *nye* disorder comes before food and growth
[01:01] *Togas* do we do entertainer now or next turn?
[01:01] *nye* nesxt turn
[01:01] *Togas* oh, forget it
[01:01] *Togas* I understand what you mean
[01:01] *Togas*
[01:02] *nye*
[01:03] *Togas* ok, no other orders
[01:03] *Togas* going to take a shot and save this thing
[01:04] *Arnelos_Civ3* sounds good
[01:04] *nye* ok
[01:06] *Togas* btw, can you let me know (for Dejon) what your plans are for those Riders?
[01:06] *Arnelos_Civ3* that would be nice
[01:06] *nye* we have not decided yet
[01:06] *nye* we will pop the single wounded one, just about for sure
[01:07] *nye* however, if we use up the six knights on the pamp road, the 11 will occupy it
[01:07] *nye* and be able to move on Pamp the following turn
[01:07] *nye* i think that is why the 2 are there
[01:07] *Togas* how do you mean?
[01:07] *Togas* they're going to block the road?
[01:07] *nye* to get us to use 3 or 4 of the 6 on them
[01:08] *nye* unfortunately, in the mountains, the loser moves first
[01:09] *nye* and spain has a mountain problem
[01:09] *Togas* no joke
[01:09] *Togas* any hope of distracting GoW?
[01:09] *Togas* or getting them to pull back? Any plans for a northern offensive or is that a long time away?
[01:12] *nye* well, up to now, we have been preparing to repel gow assaults
[01:12] *nye* assaults that never seem to come
[01:12] *nye* they are like vox, on speed
[01:13] *nye* unfortunately, whatever we do, those 14, soon to be 13, riders are not going to leave
[01:14] *Togas* true
[01:14] *nye* they are stuck too deep, don;t you think?
[01:14] *Arnelos_Civ3* that's my opinion as well... both in terms of GoW's mentality and the reality of their location
[01:14] *Arnelos_Civ3* they're just too far from home
[01:14] *nye* our whole focus has been to rush into the breach. to build a force in Spain capable of holding those cities
[01:14] *Togas* damnit! I forgot to gift the gold!
[01:15] *nye* damn
[01:15] *nye* how much gold?
[01:15] * Togas ponder replaying save.
[01:15] *Arnelos_Civ3* GoW redid the save...
[01:15] *nye* that would be kosher
[01:15] *Togas* 31g
[01:15] * Togas will replay save
[01:16] *Arnelos_Civ3* btw...
[01:16] *Arnelos_Civ3* we need to ask if we can get more cash or some tech from Lego... ZargonX seemed quite open to the idea of giving money to Spain in order to make the war more bloody for ND when I talked to him
[01:16] *Togas* save replayed
[01:17] *nye* good plan, arnelos
[01:17] *Togas* Legoland has ALWAYs said they were open to it
[01:17] *nye* we worked on vondrack on that vey topic
[01:17] *Togas* we've had at least 3 sucessful discussions with them
[01:17] *Togas* but ultimately, no money ever comes
[01:17] *nye* i have a hunch
[01:18] *Arnelos_Civ3* even better, if Lego is giving us money, that reduces the burden on GS, which is actually sending troops
[01:18] *nye* what if lego is backing gow?
[01:18] *Arnelos_Civ3* it's entirely possible
[01:18] *Togas* 4 save replayed
[01:18] *Togas* it's very possible
[01:19] *Togas* they help GoW fight their #1 rival
[01:19] *Togas* what bothers me is how all of them seem to underestimate ND's power and opportunity to win this game.
[01:19] *nye* me too
[01:19] *nye* but...
[01:19] *Togas* The germans are very good players
[01:20] *nye* they use gow to weaken or cripple rp
[01:20] *nye* gs gets blooded in the process
[01:20] *nye* and falls hopelessly behind on city building
[01:20] *nye* then gow and lego move on nd
[01:21] *Arnelos_Civ3* assuming Lego is open to building a fleet and warmongering, sure
[01:21] *Togas* Lego actually attacking someone would surprise the hell otu of me
[01:21] *Arnelos_Civ3* but I'd bet they're still building universities over there
[01:21] *Togas* I think they will just play puppeteer from their island and build universities and markets everywhere
[01:21] *Arnelos_Civ3* to a builder, this war is the best thing that could hve EVER happened to them... let the rest of the world bloody itself... they'll build universities and cathedrals
[01:21] *Togas* Lego just has to make it to steam, get a RR set up, then they win.
[01:22] *nye* likely
[01:23] *Arnelos_Civ3* that said, they have every reason to attempt to make the war even more bloody... this is our angle for trying to get aid out of them
[01:23] *Arnelos_Civ3* we have to do everything to make it sound like we're losing... which is the game I've been playing with them
[01:24] *Togas* ok, Gold sent to GS
[01:24] *Togas* turn replayed. Sucks to watch those guys lose again
[01:24] *Togas* sending off new save to Vox...
[01:24] *nye* ok
[01:24] *nye* well, the worm has to turn sometime
[01:27] *Arnelos_Civ3* The thing is... it's still possible that we could pull this through, or at least that GS can. If so, it's possible that ND and GoW will eventually be crushed...
[01:27] *Arnelos_Civ3* if that happens, Lego's just sit and build strategy is severe folly
[01:28] *nye* we agree
[01:28] *Togas* I'm open to any ideas
[01:28] *nye* we should say we are open to ideas. schemers we are not
[01:29] *Arnelos_Civ3* The point is that we need to make it sound like, even if GS starts winning, that the war is still a stalemate or GS/RP is losing. As long as Lego believes that, we might get money to fuel their own eventual demise.
[01:29] *nye* sorry, no offence intended, but the guys don;t have the experience3
[01:29] *nye* we have tried to do the same, arne
[01:29] *Togas* Most of my tricks depend on logical arguments that GoW refuses to hear.
[01:30] *Togas* believe me, I've talked to MZ so much he's sick of me.
[01:30] *Arnelos_Civ3* lol
[01:30] *nye* heh
[01:30] *Togas* even with sympathy from Donegeal and Unorthodox, they don't seem to want to budge. They all seem "resigned" to this war
[01:30] *Arnelos_Civ3* I've talked to Unortho quite a bit recently over AIM... he's actually against this war (or so he claims) and believes GoW had a shot at victory if they hadn't done this
[01:31] *Arnelos_Civ3* Togas - that's my impression
[01:31] *Togas* Thing is, I can't figure out who's the big mover behind it
[01:31] *Arnelos_Civ3* the ones who wanted to play to win have resigned themselves to this fate
[01:31] *Arnelos_Civ3* Panzer
[01:31] *Togas* Even with MZ's evil plans, I know he's smarter than this.
[01:31] *Arnelos_Civ3* Unortho also claims that GhengisFarb has had some impact in this, but I don't know if I buy that one
[01:31] *Togas* Panzer. The high school kid. They seem to repect him a good deal.
[01:32] *Togas* GF, despite being the poster child for what is wrong with GoW, isn't in power anymore, and I don't believe he has much influence at all.
[01:33] *Togas* My only experience with Panzer was back when he was their idiot FAM guy who called us Nazis for refusing to trade until they moved their warrior.
[01:33] *Arnelos_Civ3* Unortho's claim was that GF had merely helped provide arguments in favor of the *spirit* of fighting RP Team, which I believe. The question is who of the more level-headed crowd over there is pushing a more reasonable course for striking RP.
[01:34] *Togas* It had to be the "it's more fun to fight RP" argument
[01:34] *Togas* fighting ND would actually mean they might lose
[01:34] *nye* i think that is it
[01:34] *Togas* perhaps they ultmately chose the safer path.
[01:35] *Togas* which is a shame, but it keeps them in the game.
[01:35] *Togas* the "bandwagon" quality of GoW.
[01:35] *Togas* get with the winning side.
[01:35] *Arnelos_Civ3* Togas - we can't really fully blame them for that one
[01:35] *Togas* true
[01:36] *Arnelos_Civ3* aferall, when we could clearly see we were 100% sure of being dead, we did the same
[01:36] *Arnelos_Civ3* I suppose the point is that they decided to do that when they were perhaps only 30% chance of not winning
[01:36] *Arnelos_Civ3* (meaning against ND)
[01:36] *nye* yeah, but they have picked it willingly
[01:36] *Togas* GoW could have sided with us vs ND, but that might result in ND tearing them apart.
[01:36] *Arnelos_Civ3* NYE - that's my point
[01:37] *nye* they have avoided a real fight like the plague, right from dot
[01:37] *Togas* ND has planned to attack us since, what? turn 40? 50?
[01:37] *Arnelos_Civ3* yeah, we've LOOONG known that ND was out to eventually get us
[01:38] *Togas* this has been a long time coming and an inevitable clash. We were foolish not to build more but we got too distracted with trying to settle everything
[01:38] *Arnelos_Civ3* the question there was only timing
[01:39] *Arnelos_Civ3* Togas - the other critical part of the equation with ND was that on some level we always assumed that GoW would jump at the chance to divide ND and split the continent because GoW fighting ND makes a LOT more sense than GoW fighting RP.
[01:39] *Togas* anyhow, spilt milk. I just keep pondering IF there is anything that can be done about GoW or not.
[01:39] *Togas* agreed. And we had the MPP with GoW
[01:39] *Togas* fat lot of good that did us
[01:39] *Arnelos_Civ3* So we didn't worry about ND *as much* because of the MPP with GoW and the eventual plan to divide ND
[01:40] *Arnelos_Civ3* The idea that GoW would come all the way across the continent to attack us instead seemed ludicrous... only an idiot would do that
[01:40] *Togas* and you cannot reasonably plan for every idiotic plan that comes to mind.
[01:40] *nye* that is true
[01:41] *Togas* We often dismissed such notions from our less involved players who feared GoW would attack us.
[01:41] *Arnelos_Civ3* I certainly remember that
[01:41] *Togas* "It isn't logical that GoW would attack"
[01:41] *Arnelos_Civ3* I've made that argument so many times...
[01:41] *Togas* as did I
[01:41] *nye* that's a proble... gf and logic
[01:41] *nye* *problme
[01:41] *nye* bah
[01:41] *nye* it is late
[01:42] *Togas* true. Tiss a good time to play some Conquests
[01:42] *Arnelos_Civ3*
[01:42] *Arnelos_Civ3* I've to
[01:42] *Arnelos_Civ3* btw...
[01:42] *Arnelos_Civ3* I've gotten 3 military GL's and 1 scientific GL in the past 10-12 turns in the Middle Ages conquest
[01:42] *Arnelos_Civ3* this is sick
[01:43] *Arnelos_Civ3* but I'm up for saving this and playing an MP game instead
[01:43] *Togas* I haven't figured out if using the sci GL to boost your city's research is of much value yet
[01:43] *Arnelos_Civ3* I'd much rather rush a wonder with it
[01:43] *Arnelos_Civ3* which is what I did
[01:43] *Togas* but I got one this one time, no wonders available, and used it to boost research.
[01:43] *Arnelos_Civ3* ah
[01:44] *Togas* didn't seem to boost it that much, though. But I didn't go back to check and see if the boost was permanent or not
[01:44] *Togas* maybe kicked it up 10-20%
[01:45] *Arnelos_Civ3* I have 4 armies running around now... I now own all of the British Isles as well as all of France.
[01:45] *Arnelos_Civ3* I'm trying to decide if I'm ready for the grand crusade against Jerusalem yet or if I should try to claim the other 2 artifacts first
[01:46] *Togas* I need to give that game a shot.
[01:46] *Togas* but first, I need to put more time into the Shogun scenario
[01:46] *nye* i will retire now, g'night guys
[01:46] *Arnelos_Civ3* so, any chance of an MP game?
[01:46] *Arnelos_Civ3* cya nye
Session Close: Fri Aug 08 01:46:49 2003

[Harovan]

It would be really helpful if we could see who said what. just replace the < with the sequence &lt; and the > with the sequence &gt;.

[notyoueither]

Sorry, forgot. Fixed.