Chat with Glory of War

[zeit]

We have one set up for July 5th, on 10:00 GMT, probably at their FAM channel.

We do have some stuff we need to discuss, and I hope we can get them agreed upon before the chat:

1) Limited NAP- do we want such arrangement, in which we do not join an alliance againt eachoter, and also don't attack them unless they have declared war of agression against someone else on Bob, for a certain period of time?

If not such kind of NAP, than what kind, I believe this will the most important issue that will be discussed in the chat, so we better be prepared

2) Luxury deals- we could present them our policy regarding luxury deals- we still have time to iron it out before the chat start, and get ourselves a nice document with all the small details.


Of course, we should bring up the usual trade and tech stuff, if we'll have the time. Do we have any plans for future research, that might be interesting for GoW?

[DeepO]

research: ask them what their position will be, if they are stopping all research for upgrading or not.

I don't mind telling them we'll be going for Econ, and will make sure we're the first to reach it (a bit more pleasantly packed, of course). Possibly, this information already leaked, and if not, it could help us in avoiding tech-collisions with GoW.

Further: we need to mention our current infrastructure problem again, this is the one point were we can play the victim, and downplay our own power without lieing. GoW likely has more buildings then us, even if that will change the next couple of turns.

If possible, I would try to arrange some negotiations on banking with GoW... they don't need to promise now they'll be buying it from us, but we just want to let them know it will be available for trade.

Re: limited NAP: I'm still not sure about this. Word it very carefully, and please don't make it an official offer, just something that needs to be discussed, and ratified later. It's good to explore options, though...

Re: lux policy: we should get that document ready before the chat (which is tomorrow, right? In which case I won't be there), so you could send it to them immediately before, or at the start of the chat. This gives us the possibility to explain what we mean, while keeping them from forming a too extreme opinion beforehand, without a 2-way communication. But, if there is talk about a limited NAP, GoW won't care for one bit if we consider lux implicit NAPs or not.

DeepO

[zeit]

I got this from UnO, re: chat agenda:

zeit,

Sorry for my tardiness in getting this to you this time, it is a holiday here in the States, and I am now President in the SPDG as well. Just a warning, that may take some time, and I may need to appoint an assistant for you guys. Ill let you know if that becomes the case.

Anyway, GoW would like to discuss the following:

NYE mentioned in a recent chat with MZ that you guys had obtained some informal information. We were wondering if you intended to share this information with us or not, and if not, we wondered if we could know from where it came. Expecially if there is a GoW member, active or not, giving out information, we feel it is in the best interest of the game that it not continue. If, however, someone just slipped somewhere, we understand.

We are curious about the research path that GS is taking. We would like to coordinate research to work towards a future trade.

And finally,
NYE mentioned he was re-wording the Non Agression and that GS may approve it, just want an update on how this is proceeding.

Look forward to seeing you.

UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador to Gathering Storm

What should we tell them about the limited-NAP? Surely we won't agree on it by then, but as said, we could mention the idea and that it is postiviely considered...

But what do we say exactly? We could try to manuever out of giving details yet by saying something like this:
"We want to maintain the ability to intervene should such intervention be necessary (e.g. 2 Vs 1 war), but we have no intention of initiating war against GoW, therefor we are looking for a formula that allows us to guarrantee a certain degree of security to both nations, without denying us both the chance to intervene militarily if such intervention is called for."

If they ask for more details, we could say we are working on the specific details of the agreement, but add that we believe it gives more security than having no agreement at all, and that our goal right now is peaceful building, so helping keeping Bob stable, as we now realize we are at least partially Bobians, is our interest.

We could, OTOH, say to them we were thinking on signing a NAP that can be voided if one party starts a war of aggresion against another civ on Bob, or if one joins an alliance against one of the Bobians.

Please comment, we don't have much time left...

[zeit]

One more thing- about our "infomal information". I wasn't too sure myself what NYE was referring to, but I don't suppose we have any mole that I don't of...

I suppose NYE was referring to random chats in which some info is shared regarding plans and views, that can be suprising or incosistent, not necessarily any security breaches of any sort, and nothing that should make GoW worried.

Still, since UnO mentioned it, we should say something to diffuse the tension.

[Shiber]

I suggest that when this comes up during the chat, we pretend that we're not sure of what UnO is talking about and say that we don't read every chat log (I'll have the perfect excuse, since I'm the ambassador to ND actually), and ask him to give a recap. That way we'll get UnO's own description of what NYE said, and we'll know what he puts the emphasis on, and how he understood NYE's words.
The information that can be extracted from UnO's words during and after the chat can be very insightful.

[notyoueither]

10am or 10pm GMT? 10pm would be great. 10am is an ungodly hour where I am.

re NAP, we should find out if they are clear and understand that it would be an NAP which would not apply to offensive coalitions. If they are confused as to what I meant, and do not like the idea, then the table is clear.

re informal sources. We have nothing significant currently. People chatter, and we have picked up on some things in the past. I told them that. We should tell them that no, no one from GoW is secretly passing on information to us, and have not in the past. We would not employ moles against anyone.

[zeit]

10:00 GMT, as in 10am.

sorry NYE...

[zeit]

We're done.

I think it went pretty well- GoW certainly seem to be honest with, and feel our "destinies are entwined". Although their pretty nervous about the NAP, which is understandable, we have managed to come to understanding regarding the Lux deals, as well as raising the possibility of future tech trade (they're going Invention- Lego is pursuing another course, right?).

We have to seriously consider their suggestions regarding Lego, and a NAP (or limited one) as well...

[Aeson]

I think the Lego problem is not as bad as GoW makes it out to be. The corruption settings are going to mean RP can get very close to 'maxed' out on production and commerce with their land they have now. Lego, even if they have all 400 of the missing tiles, won't be able to exceed their output (assuming the same government/improvements) by much if at all.

If we get a Palace jump onto Bob (in one of the 3-4 really good river locations,and with the FP in Arashi), we would be pretty close to 'maxed' ourselves.

Also, a team doesn't need to beat Lego (or us) to win. Basically, taking Bob will mean a Domination victory for any civ. Lego can have an 'invincible' homeland and still lose, as can we.

I think who controls Bob decides this game in almost all instances.

[DeepO]

Ah, I agree, Aeson... just posted something similar in the GoW comments thread... today is repeating time, it seems

DeepO

[OPD]

UnOr contacted me by private channel in IRC while I was idleing.
He wanted to know something about trappings XX.. but I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Can't find the contact log so here's what was said here.

UnOrthOdOx> Hey
UnOrthOdOx> You there?
opd> lo
opd> pbeming
UnOrthOdOx> Have you guys been discussing Trappings XIX at all?
UnOrthOdOx> GS, I mean
opd> hmmmn don't know
opd> what is trappings again?
UnOrthOdOx> Oh well.
UnOrthOdOx> My story: The Trappings of War
opd> I haven't
UnOrthOdOx> XIX I mentioned the lux and map trades, was wanting to know if you guys wanted them kept secret, Shiber was supposed to post about it...
UnOrthOdOx> In your forums
opd> will check now
opd> there is alot of activity regarding GoW diplomacy atm
opd> I am not up with it at all
UnOrthOdOx> I am
opd> as mainly concentrate on RP diplomacy
UnOrthOdOx> Im your ambassador from GoW
opd> I can't confirm anything
opd> or tell you anything unless I'm mistaken
UnOrthOdOx> I just want to know it was brought up. this is not diplomacy at all, jut my pet project
opd> would you like me to post something in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> I have the next two sections written, just waiting for confirmation that XIX was OK or not so I can rewrite
that part out.
opd> oh ok
opd> I see
UnOrthOdOx> how are things with RP, anyway?
UnOrthOdOx> If you can say
opd> bigfree's cool
opd> good to work with
UnOrthOdOx> adaMada left, we've been kinda in limbo since. usually deal directly with Togas.
opd> no ambassador from RP?
UnOrthOdOx> Nope
UnOrthOdOx> I know MrWIA is theirs to ND, but no idea who they have for Vox or Lego
UnOrthOdOx> I think GK may have been to lego, now I think about it...
UnOrthOdOx> Gk was someones ambassador
opd> I thought togas would have all diplomacy sorted
opd> maybe they don't care too much about GoW,
UnOrthOdOx> Well, ada just disappeared...think that threw them off. Not sure if they have enough activity?
UnOrthOdOx> That's what we're afraid of...actually
opd> you guys going to war with anyone soon?
UnOrthOdOx> not until someone hires us
UnOrthOdOx> no offers yet
opd> ok can't find anything regarding trappings in relevant thread
opd> would you like me to post about it
UnOrthOdOx> Just preparing defence against a possible RP/ND alliance.
opd> would you like me to post something concerning this in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> If you would, just a kind reminder. I asked Shiber about it through PM yesterday.
opd> ok what would you like posted
UnOrthOdOx> I'll PM you in a minute.
UnOrthOdOx> gtg
opd> ok take care

edit removed <'s

[OPD]

heres the pm's he sent me I guess he wants to know if its ok to post this stuff in the main forum.

Trappings approval (I)
Basically I mention the Lux trades and Map trades and am curious if GS would prefer them kept secret.

[quote]As Alva led me through the streets, I began to notice that the local populace was staring in our direction. To my surprise, however, it was not myself that they were staring at, it was Alva. I immediately knew that he must be someone very important within Gathering Storm, someone not seen very often in public.

I was led into a large circular room, a single hole had been cut into the roof, allowing the light to come down in a straight column. When we reached the center of this column, Alva spoke up “Please wait here until the Storm is gathered.”

I watched as Alva strolled quietly into the darkness, and disappeared. I could hear the rustling of many people gathering, but was unable to see into the dim lights that surrounded the circle, made all the worse by the column of light in which I stood. I did not like this one bit, and the warrior inside me began to search for possible routes of escape.

The room suddenly fell silent, and I could hear a single individual stepping forward, obviously this must be the GodGather I had been hearing about. I had long since ceased to be amazed by anything I saw here in the strange lands of Gathering Storm. As such, I was not too surprised to see the largest cat I had ever seen step forth into the column of light. An imposing presence, to be sure, he stood the height of my shoulders, and there was power enough to rip through any man in those massive paws. I could instantly see that this was the leader, if you could claim such a team to have one.

“Greetings UnOrthOdOx” His voice reverberated around the room “I welcome you to Gathering Storm, I am NotYouEither, shall we begin?”

My mind was working, how had I gotten myself into this? To be well behind enemy territory, surrounded, weaponless, in a country where we were currently at war. And what was this strange talk? Of course he was not me, how could he be? “It is a pleasure to be brought before the Storm here, I am humbled at this opportunity and hope that this can be the beginning of…”

A massive paw was raised to interrupt me. “Indeed. We know who you are and your mission. Let us dispense with this trivial nonsense and get right down to business, hmm?”

I could only smile at this. Diplomacy was not exactly my forte, and I was glad to speak plainly about such matters of state as we had to discuss. The meeting raced away and before I knew it the light coming into the room had begun to dim. With little fanfare, we ended the meeting and I was escorted back to Arrian’s Deception. Now well into the dead of the night, I sat down and contemplated all that had been accomplished in this meeting. Not only had a peace been arranged, but I had learned that Gathering Storm would soon be completing harbors. This meant that a new trade route for our now famous wines could be established, and I hoped that the furs we would receive in trade were as excellent as Shiber had been describing. In addition, the highly secretive Stormians had actually decided to share their map with us. We were very proud of our mapping endeavors, and I was sure that such a trade would be greatly agreeable to both parties.



Trappings Approval (II)
quote:
Try as I might, though, I could not sleep, so I began my preparations to leave and soon was all packed and prepared to go. Now, if I only knew where I was and which direction was the coast, I would be on my way. At any rate, I decided to seek out this Arrian and have that discussion about the horse with him. No sooner did I descend the stairs, though, than my heart began to sink.

“Oh, you’re awake! How are you doing? That was some meeting wasn’t it! It’s so nice to be at peace again, we sure do like peace. Why if we had our choice we would have stayed at peace this whole time! Guess what? I’ve been chosen to escort you back to your ship! Isn’t that great? I actually asked for this, I have many questions I want to ask of you. I was just reading in the Glory of News that you slew a dragon! What’s a Dragon? How did you kill it? Can I come see it? No, I don’t mind, I want to come visit now we are at peace again! Wow, a Dragon! Who wouldn’t want to see that? Are you going to kill more? Think I can help? You know, I really am quite a sailor, I am sure that I would be of great assistance to slaying a dragon! Besides, I want to see this ‘ballista’ too.”

Shiber had apparently been unable to sleep either. I highly doubted he ever did.

“You know, we can leave now if you want. I have instructed our forces to allow your ship to land again, and we are loading it now with the first shipment of furs! I picked them out myself! You know, there is nothing better than curling up next to your wife under some furs on a cold night. Did I tell you about my new white fur? The whitest I have ever seen! I bought it just the other day, say, why don’t we go up and take a look, you can see how we make them! Oh, wait, you have some on your ship! I can tell you all about how we make them on the trip over to Glory of War! Picked those out, I did! The ones on your ship are some of the finest in our land! Did I tell you that I am really quite a sailor too? Why during the Inchon invasion I commanded….”

Surprisingly as we headed down the road towards the course, Shiber’s constant babbling seemed to make the time fly by. It seemed to take no time at all as we boarded the ship and set sail. I could see the crew casting angry glances at the distraction that Shiber was creating, but I had actually begun to enjoy such nonsense. It seemed to keep my mind occupied, which also kept me from the dreams that were haunting me.

A stop in Port Isolation to unload the first shipment of furs, I discovered that my family had headed back to Camulodunum, and that the preparations had been begun for me to begin training the new commanders there. I decided, then, to continue to sail around northern Bob straight to Camulodunum. An overland route may have well been quicker, but I saw no reason to drag Shiber right through the heart of our continent where he would potentially gain information on troop strengths and locations. Peace we were at, sure, but nowhere near the point of sharing such information. I thought for an instant that the crew would kill me for such a thought, keeping them with Shiber for days yet to come, but I assured them that in time they might actually come to appreciate the constant drivel that seemed to spew from his mouth.

[DeepO]

Fine by me...

DeepO

[notyoueither]

I think Shiber should have a say in this.

[Shiber]

It's approved as far as I'm concerned.
I would have PM'ed UnOrthOdOx already, but I didn't get as much participation as I hoped in my 'trappings and confidentiality' thread.