Tweet
This was half personal, and half 'in character'. I think it warrants posting. There are some interesting bits, aside from my beer induced, sleep deprived fumblings. 
Session Start: Sun Jun 15 01:57:25 2003
Session Ident: vondrack
[01:57] {nye> hi
[01:57] {nye> just saw you
[01:57] {vondrack> hi!
[01:57] {vondrack> no problem... I thought you were busy with ISDG
[01:58] {nye> that, and other things
[01:58] {vondrack> I am just working on turn orders for Lego
[01:58] {vondrack> of course
[01:58] {nye> hehe. being a peacenik is exhausting
[01:58] {vondrack> tell me about it)
[01:59] {vondrack> I heard back from Vox - they seem to be ready to accept the terms
[01:59] {vondrack> and I am working on getting whoever it was planning to land or landing on Stormia to back off
[01:59] {nye> very good. the discussion here is yet to really begin.
[01:59] {vondrack> though my influence there is limited
[02:00] {nye> ok. i hoped you could reach them wehen i couldn't
[02:00] {vondrack> Voxes were conducting their own diplomacy and may have other teams commiting to military help
[02:00] {nye> yes
[02:00] {vondrack> but I believe I will be able to sort that out
[02:00] {nye> you have the save?
[02:00] {vondrack> nope, told Beta to sit on it
[02:00] {vondrack> we need as much time as possible
[02:00] {nye> ah. ok
[02:01] {nye> yes
[02:01] {nye> in a few hours, the gs disscussion will begin.
[02:01] {nye> unfortunately, i was a dorf and did not log it myself. :/
[02:01] {vondrack> primarily because if you refuse, I would take it Voxes would fight desperately - if you agree to let them survive, they would cease fire at minimum
[02:01] {vondrack> yes, sorry for that
[02:02] {vondrack> I thought Shiber would be logging?
[02:02] {vondrack> he was there from the very beginning
[02:02] {nye> not your problem. mine entirely.
[02:02] {nye> he should have, but then he has been here and gone again since
[02:02] {vondrack> ah, yes
[02:03] {nye> vox has already begun to fight desperately.
[02:03] {nye> ouch, but predictable vs immortals
[02:03] {vondrack> heh... what would you do in their position?
[02:03] {vondrack> right
[02:04] {nye> i would do as they have done, on the fields.
[02:09] {vondrack> back
[02:09] {vondrack> my cable connection went down for a moment
[02:09] {nye> k
[02:09] {nye> bugger
[02:10] {vondrack> I am quite sad to see how the emotions are getting tense about the PtWDG
[02:10] {vondrack> as if it was more than a bloody game
[02:10] {vondrack> people are taking it too personally
[02:10] {vondrack> many of them
[02:11] {vondrack> though I do see where their feelings come from
[02:11] {nye> yes. unfortunately, there are some things no one will enjoy, if they are the target of it.
[02:12] {vondrack> I know
[02:12] {vondrack> fell victim to that myself
[02:12] {vondrack> being called a despot in ISDG and such
[02:12] {vondrack>
[02:12] {nye> that is why some feel like resigning. it is only a bloody game. why put up with it.
[02:12] {vondrack> though I will note one thing
[02:13] {nye> go ahead
[02:13] {vondrack> yes, most of what is going on in the public forum
[02:13] {vondrack> is just "staged" to create an illusion of the world politics
[02:13] {vondrack> what really matters
[02:14] {vondrack> re: your relations to other teams
[02:14] {vondrack> is how you conduct your direct contacts with them
[02:14] {nye> yes
[02:14] {nye> but, to many it is not received as such.
[02:14] {vondrack> the public fighting, unfortunately, helps you very little
[02:14] {nye> aeson, sir ralph, and many others are past the point of enjoymenbt
[02:15] {vondrack>
[02:15] {nye> yes.
[02:15] {nye> and who will be next?
[02:15] {nye> the way this game is being played is beneath most of the people i know and respect from this forum.
[02:15] {vondrack> see, what I believe is the problem
[02:16] {vondrack> is that you are taking this "world politics" too serious
[02:16] {vondrack> or do you believe that others are serious "siding with Voxes because this and this"?
[02:16] {vondrack> sure they want you weakened
[02:16] {vondrack> nothing else
[02:16] {nye> yes. that is how many perceive it.
[02:16] {vondrack> everything else is just to make it look like it is "justified"
[02:17] {nye> sir ralph and aeson feel... sullied.
[02:17] {vondrack> well - they perceive it PERFECTLY correct
[02:17] {nye> i have to say, i have felt that too.
[02:17] {vondrack> the trick is - this "justifiying"
[02:17] {vondrack> is PART OF THE GAME, too
[02:17] {nye> and it only makes me want to cruch the offender without mercy
[02:17] {nye> no. lies nad deceit do not have to be part of the game.
[02:18] {nye> there is no honour in that
[02:18] {vondrack> do not have to, but are
[02:18] {nye> and if this does not change, there will not be much of gs left to play the game
[02:18] {vondrack> you would have to kill most other civs
[02:19] {vondrack> hm, there is some fun even if you accept that lies and deception are part of the game
[02:19] {nye> if all the other civs weant to play a game of underhanded backstabbing, than they can come and get us first.
[02:19] {nye> because we will come for them
[02:19] {nye> we are tired of the bull****
[02:19] {vondrack> then stay out of it... ignore it
[02:19] {nye> it cannot be ignored.
[02:19] {vondrack> as you can see
[02:19] {vondrack> Togas will talk and talk
[02:19] {vondrack> but does nothing
[02:19] {nye> i am gs. sir ralph is gs. saeson is gs
[02:20] {nye> when gs is besmirched, we are.
[02:20] {nye> and we will no longer tolerate it
[02:20] {vondrack> nye - everybody knows that the first post of vox "public announcements" uses to be at least dubious
[02:20] {nye> asnd we will no longer tolerate the hyenas clapping along
[02:21] {nye> that is not how three members of three teams responded.
[02:21] {vondrack> it's actually the reactions of GS that give other "food" to keep talk-fights
[02:21] {nye> bull
[02:21] {nye> it is togas and his flase piety
[02:21] {vondrack> but of course!
[02:22] {nye> it is mz and his... whatever he was doing
[02:22] {vondrack> you know it is false
[02:22] {vondrack> everybody knows
[02:22] {vondrack> so why do you bother?
[02:22] {nye> and it was you and zargon
[02:22] {nye> because we are a part of apolyton too!
[02:22] {nye> if you want to play a game where slagging is the order of the day, let us know, we will stay out of it
[02:23] {vondrack> yep - this is the problem: if we consider these "public quarrels" part of Apolyton and not part of the PtWDG game, we have a problem
[02:23] {nye> if weasels rule, we want no part of it
[02:23] {vondrack> then we both better leave the game NOW
[02:23] {nye> but of course they are
[02:24] {nye> you expect sr to dump hundreds of hours into a game and not feel that he identifies with it?
[02:24] {vondrack> perhaps I expressed myself wrong... what I meant is that most of this public bull**** is just that - game-related bull****
[02:25] {vondrack> if taken seriously in the out-of-game context
[02:25] {vondrack> then it is a very good reason to leave the game, yes
[02:25] {nye> or change the game
[02:25] {nye> that is the choice.
[02:25] {vondrack> ok, shall we try changing togas and his kin? do you feel up to the task?
[02:26] {vondrack> since it is not the game you would have to change - it is the players playing it
[02:26] {vondrack> remember ISDG
[02:26] {nye> lies, and being weasels have never been a part of apolyton. i would suggest that people who want to be that way look for change
[02:27] {nye> they would all be toast within 15 seconds on the civ2 forum
[02:27] {vondrack> well, I have found out people like you or me are in the minority
[02:27] {nye> unfortunate.
[02:27] {vondrack> even my own team is difficult to be kept "in line" sometimes
[02:27] {nye> i will tilt at my windmills though.
[02:27] {vondrack> I have teammates I honestly hate
[02:27] {vondrack> teammate, to be precise
[02:27] {nye> sharpe?
[02:28] {vondrack> uh oh... is it that well known?
[02:28] {vondrack> but yes - he is a personification of many things
[02:28] {nye> no. you told me once before. i do not know him.
[02:28] {vondrack> ah, I see
[02:28] {vondrack> many things I disagree with very strongly
[02:29] {vondrack> like cowardness, opportunism, inability to stand in one's word
[02:29] {vondrack> I thought we would be playing a game
[02:29] {nye> oh oh
[02:29] {vondrack> of grand alliances
[02:29] {nye> i hoped so too
[02:29] {vondrack> honour, dignity, and such
[02:29] {vondrack> sorry, bad place, nye
[02:30] {vondrack> we would have to go somewhere else
[02:30] {vondrack> I have realized this quite some time ago
[02:30] {nye> to be honest, once beta is gone, or silent. things will settle down
[02:30] {vondrack> people are too keen on winning
[02:30] {vondrack> I very much hope so
[02:30] {nye> go somewhere else?
[02:30] {vondrack> like play a different game
[02:30] {nye> ahh. ok.
[02:31] {nye> take yourself back...
[02:31] {vondrack> just with people we know understand the concept
[02:31] {nye> back to the invasion of iraq...
[02:31] {nye> back to when that info guy was funny
[02:32] {nye> when beta first fashioned himself after al-shrif
[02:32] {nye> it was funny, yes?
[02:32] {vondrack> more interested in having fun, experiencing things/feelings scarce in the real world, rather than just winning
[02:32] {vondrack> yes, it was
[02:32] {nye> yes, but he adopted it.
[02:32] {nye> he made smears a part of the routine.
[02:33] {nye> and others accept it because 'gs is a bunch of *****'
[02:33] {nye> bah!
[02:33] {nye> but up the swords, or die!
[02:33] {vondrack>)
[02:34] {nye> that is our feeling, and why i think things will calm down once vox is dealt with one way or the other
[02:34] {vondrack> mind you, though, it's not Beta who made others think 'gs is a bunch of *****' (if there is anyone truly thinking so, which I am not that sure of)
[02:34] {vondrack> he just chimed in with feeling that existed even before
[02:34] {vondrack> feelings
[02:35] {nye> no, that has been a concerted effort, and some self inflicted wounds
[02:35] {nye>
[02:35] {vondrack> LoL
[02:35] {vondrack> @ self-inflicted wounds
[02:35] {nye> yes. funny they are
[02:35] {nye> man.
[02:36] {nye> of course, togas has got to have a very good rep about now as well
[02:36] {vondrack> you BET!
[02:36] {nye> hehe
[02:36] {nye> he is irreplaceable in the isdg, but for an internal game...
[02:36] {vondrack> and sadly - he took RPers as a team with him
[02:37] {vondrack> since Togas=RPers for most people
[02:37] {vondrack> their members mimic his methods and behaviour
[02:37] {nye> yeah. not all though\
[02:37] {vondrack> considering them great
[02:37] {vondrack> yes, not all
[02:37] {nye> some of them have fine minds of their own
[02:37] {vondrack> sure
[02:38] {vondrack> the problem is that this game is a damn hard exercise in learning to distinguish
[02:38] {vondrack> between the game and reality
[02:38] {vondrack> between an individual and team
[02:38] {nye> but, should people have to?
[02:39] {nye> should people have to think, will this reflect on me if i stay part of this team?
[02:39] {vondrack> sure not
[02:40] {vondrack> but it is usually not up to them
[02:40] {vondrack> others effectively decide
[02:40] {vondrack> if Togas does a diplo boo-boo, his mates can do little
[02:40] {vondrack> harm is done
[02:40] {vondrack> the "difficulty" of the "exercise"
[02:40] {vondrack> is in that
[02:40] {vondrack> OTHERS
[02:40] {vondrack> need to realize it was Togas, not RPers
[02:40] {nye> yes
[02:41] {vondrack> and that is what often does not happen
[02:41] {nye> one action, of course
[02:41] {vondrack> yes
[02:41] {nye> but wehat if all the plans and actions carried out as a team are then presented to the public forum under false pretenses?
[02:42] {nye> and then others pick up the refrain, and scold the baaaaaad gs'ers?
[02:42] {nye> gs says, fvck you all, and then you die :0
[02:43] {vondrack> you=GS or you=others?
[02:43] {nye> you can come to mean any others who favour the side of lies and weasel words.
[02:44] {nye> seriously, we are pissed
[02:44] {nye> theseus' thread is an attempt to provide an escape valve
[02:45] {nye> don;t know if it will work
[02:45] {vondrack> see, the problem is that your internal code of ethics is just yours
[02:45] {vondrack> nobody else agreed to it
[02:45] {vondrack> might have
[02:45] {vondrack> but never did
[02:45] {vondrack> so asking others to adhere to it
[02:45] {nye> ok.
[02:45] {vondrack> may and may not work
[02:45] {vondrack> as you said
[02:45] {vondrack> others like to play this game differently
[02:46] {nye> but don't ***** when we kill a weasle civ.
[02:46] {nye> cause that is what we wiull do
[02:46] {nye> you better all come now if you want to stop that
[02:47] {vondrack> we did whatever we were able to - but we have our own goals to stick to
[02:47] {nye> or maybe, we should just self destruct, and leave the rest to the mud patch
[02:47] {vondrack> he, that might be a good idea
[02:47] {vondrack> perhaps another crash problem would solve it?
[02:47] {vondrack> don't bother looking for the cause next time
[02:47] {nye> because, most memebrs of gs have zero interest in playing a game by beta's rules
[02:48] {vondrack> nye, it is not BETA's rules - he just adopted whatever rules prevailed in the game before all this started
[02:48] {nye> heh. yeah
[02:48] {nye> asnd that is what we at gs object to
[02:48] {nye> the turning of the public forum into a place of weasels
[02:49] {nye> we ahve no interest
[02:49] {vondrack> perhaps we should agree upon that there will be no public discussions regarding the game?
[02:49] {nye> and, i doubt the owners do either, for that matter
[02:49] {vondrack> but then... it might take out some fun from the game
[02:49] {vondrack> oh, well
[02:49] {vondrack> no perfect solution
[02:50] {nye> fun? being lieed about and having the chorus chirp in is fun?
[02:50] {vondrack> no perfect people to work with
[02:50] {vondrack> no - I was referring to the period where it WAS fun
[02:50] {nye> let me know what you think of when you enjoy that 'fun'
[02:50] {vondrack> like al-Sahaf stuff and all
[02:50] {nye> go back before that
[02:50] {nye> then it was fun
[02:51] {nye> the al-Sahaf was turned it very much unfun for the targets.
[02:51] {nye> *was what
[02:52] {vondrack> sorry to hear that - it is a bit difficult to realize that for me, since I have always been keeping in mind it is all just bull****...
[02:52] {nye> and to be honest. gs would set out to destroy any civ that took it up.
[02:52] {vondrack> but I understand
[02:52] {vondrack> it might be different if it was aimed at me
[02:52] {nye> yes. if it were you
[02:53] {vondrack> but I mean - c'mon... all those faked pictures, poems, and stuff like that
[02:53] {vondrack> it was fun
[02:53] {vondrack> I do not think anyone cared about if Voxes were "right" attacking you or not
[02:53] {vondrack> everybody knew what the truth was
[02:54] {vondrack> and even Beta admitted they simply wanted to attck
[02:54] {nye> it was fine, to a point.
[02:54] {nye> that point passed a little while ago
[02:54] {nye> betas did not knwo when to stop
[02:54] {vondrack> yes, agreed
[02:54] {nye> that cost vox mightily
[02:54] {vondrack> my email to him last night was pretty harsh
[02:55] {vondrack> though he is just a human, too
[02:55] {vondrack> it is often difficult to realize when to stop
[02:55] {vondrack> I have that problem, too
[02:55] {nye> gs went from a minority demanding extinction, to a majority, in one thread
[02:56] {nye> now, it will be an effort to allow exodus
[02:56] {nye> and we don;t care what the weasels think of that
[02:58] {nye> sorry, i went on a rant.
[02:58] {vondrack> np
[02:58] {vondrack> as I said
[02:59] {vondrack> Lego has its goals and we are going to stick to them
[02:59] {vondrack> if we can make a good deal with you along
[02:59] {vondrack> it would be great
[02:59] {vondrack> if you feel the deal is not good
[02:59] {vondrack> then there will be no deal
[02:59] {vondrack> it is simple
[03:00] {nye> i would like to end the crap, and get back to a game that we can enjoy
[03:00] {nye> all of us
[03:00] {vondrack> I will be honest: I will NEVER EVER join a game like this again
[03:00] {vondrack> too emotionally exhausting for me
[03:00] {nye> i suspect that feeling is shared
[03:00] {vondrack> I have been on the verge of quitting so many times
[03:01] {nye> and beta is your friend!
[03:01] {vondrack> it is only the fact that I invested so much effort into this that I do not want to simply give up
[03:01] {nye> same here
[03:01] {vondrack> yes - believe me or not, Beta really became one of my closest friends (on personal level)
[03:01] {vondrack> like you
[03:01] {vondrack> like Tiberius
[03:01] {vondrack> and few others
[03:01] {nye> i know.
[03:02] {nye> i do not hate him
[03:02] {vondrack> I know it may be difficult to understand, but its that I can see other "faces" of him
[03:02] {vondrack> like Trip, too
[03:02] {vondrack> yes
[03:02] {nye> i think he did not consider well what he was doing
[03:02] {nye> as did not many others
[03:02] {vondrack> exactly - as did not many others
[03:02] {nye> but, some did.
[03:03] {nye> surprise, surprise
[03:03] {vondrack> I seriously doubt you can expect anything else with this many people involved
[03:03] {vondrack> LoL
[03:03] {nye> i think we can expect better. we have to demand it though
[03:03] {vondrack> anyway, nye - I gotta run, promised Karina a biking trip
[03:03] {nye> and i promised her a city.
[03:03] {vondrack>
[03:03] {nye> take care of her
[03:03] {vondrack> yes, thank you!
[03:03] {vondrack> will do
[03:03] {vondrack> take care
[03:04] {nye> you too
[03:04] {vondrack> bye
[03:04] {nye> bye
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 03:04:28 2003
Session Start: Sun Jun 15 01:57:25 2003
Session Ident: vondrack
[01:57] {nye> hi
[01:57] {nye> just saw you
[01:57] {vondrack> hi!
[01:57] {vondrack> no problem... I thought you were busy with ISDG
[01:58] {nye> that, and other things
[01:58] {vondrack> I am just working on turn orders for Lego
[01:58] {vondrack> of course
[01:58] {nye> hehe. being a peacenik is exhausting
[01:58] {vondrack> tell me about it
)[01:59] {vondrack> I heard back from Vox - they seem to be ready to accept the terms
[01:59] {vondrack> and I am working on getting whoever it was planning to land or landing on Stormia to back off
[01:59] {nye> very good. the discussion here is yet to really begin.
[01:59] {vondrack> though my influence there is limited
[02:00] {nye> ok. i hoped you could reach them wehen i couldn't
[02:00] {vondrack> Voxes were conducting their own diplomacy and may have other teams commiting to military help
[02:00] {nye> yes
[02:00] {vondrack> but I believe I will be able to sort that out
[02:00] {nye> you have the save?
[02:00] {vondrack> nope, told Beta to sit on it
[02:00] {vondrack> we need as much time as possible
[02:00] {nye> ah. ok
[02:01] {nye> yes
[02:01] {nye> in a few hours, the gs disscussion will begin.
[02:01] {nye> unfortunately, i was a dorf and did not log it myself. :/
[02:01] {vondrack> primarily because if you refuse, I would take it Voxes would fight desperately - if you agree to let them survive, they would cease fire at minimum
[02:01] {vondrack> yes, sorry for that
[02:02] {vondrack> I thought Shiber would be logging?
[02:02] {vondrack> he was there from the very beginning
[02:02] {nye> not your problem. mine entirely.
[02:02] {nye> he should have, but then he has been here and gone again since
[02:02] {vondrack> ah, yes
[02:03] {nye> vox has already begun to fight desperately.
[02:03] {nye> ouch, but predictable vs immortals
[02:03] {vondrack> heh... what would you do in their position?
[02:03] {vondrack> right
[02:04] {nye> i would do as they have done, on the fields.
[02:09] {vondrack> back
[02:09] {vondrack> my cable connection went down for a moment
[02:09] {nye> k
[02:09] {nye> bugger
[02:10] {vondrack> I am quite sad to see how the emotions are getting tense about the PtWDG
[02:10] {vondrack> as if it was more than a bloody game
[02:10] {vondrack> people are taking it too personally
[02:10] {vondrack> many of them
[02:11] {vondrack> though I do see where their feelings come from
[02:11] {nye> yes. unfortunately, there are some things no one will enjoy, if they are the target of it.
[02:12] {vondrack> I know
[02:12] {vondrack> fell victim to that myself
[02:12] {vondrack> being called a despot in ISDG and such
[02:12] {vondrack>
[02:12] {nye> that is why some feel like resigning. it is only a bloody game. why put up with it.
[02:12] {vondrack> though I will note one thing
[02:13] {nye> go ahead
[02:13] {vondrack> yes, most of what is going on in the public forum
[02:13] {vondrack> is just "staged" to create an illusion of the world politics
[02:13] {vondrack> what really matters
[02:14] {vondrack> re: your relations to other teams
[02:14] {vondrack> is how you conduct your direct contacts with them
[02:14] {nye> yes
[02:14] {nye> but, to many it is not received as such.
[02:14] {vondrack> the public fighting, unfortunately, helps you very little
[02:14] {nye> aeson, sir ralph, and many others are past the point of enjoymenbt
[02:15] {vondrack>
[02:15] {nye> yes.
[02:15] {nye> and who will be next?
[02:15] {nye> the way this game is being played is beneath most of the people i know and respect from this forum.
[02:15] {vondrack> see, what I believe is the problem
[02:16] {vondrack> is that you are taking this "world politics" too serious
[02:16] {vondrack> or do you believe that others are serious "siding with Voxes because this and this"?
[02:16] {vondrack> sure they want you weakened
[02:16] {vondrack> nothing else
[02:16] {nye> yes. that is how many perceive it.
[02:16] {vondrack> everything else is just to make it look like it is "justified"
[02:17] {nye> sir ralph and aeson feel... sullied.
[02:17] {vondrack> well - they perceive it PERFECTLY correct
[02:17] {nye> i have to say, i have felt that too.
[02:17] {vondrack> the trick is - this "justifiying"
[02:17] {vondrack> is PART OF THE GAME, too
[02:17] {nye> and it only makes me want to cruch the offender without mercy
[02:17] {nye> no. lies nad deceit do not have to be part of the game.
[02:18] {nye> there is no honour in that
[02:18] {vondrack> do not have to, but are
[02:18] {nye> and if this does not change, there will not be much of gs left to play the game
[02:18] {vondrack> you would have to kill most other civs
[02:19] {vondrack> hm, there is some fun even if you accept that lies and deception are part of the game
[02:19] {nye> if all the other civs weant to play a game of underhanded backstabbing, than they can come and get us first.
[02:19] {nye> because we will come for them
[02:19] {nye> we are tired of the bull****
[02:19] {vondrack> then stay out of it... ignore it
[02:19] {nye> it cannot be ignored.
[02:19] {vondrack> as you can see
[02:19] {vondrack> Togas will talk and talk
[02:19] {vondrack> but does nothing
[02:19] {nye> i am gs. sir ralph is gs. saeson is gs
[02:20] {nye> when gs is besmirched, we are.
[02:20] {nye> and we will no longer tolerate it
[02:20] {vondrack> nye - everybody knows that the first post of vox "public announcements" uses to be at least dubious
[02:20] {nye> asnd we will no longer tolerate the hyenas clapping along
[02:21] {nye> that is not how three members of three teams responded.
[02:21] {vondrack> it's actually the reactions of GS that give other "food" to keep talk-fights
[02:21] {nye> bull
[02:21] {nye> it is togas and his flase piety
[02:21] {vondrack> but of course!
[02:22] {nye> it is mz and his... whatever he was doing
[02:22] {vondrack> you know it is false
[02:22] {vondrack> everybody knows
[02:22] {vondrack> so why do you bother?
[02:22] {nye> and it was you and zargon
[02:22] {nye> because we are a part of apolyton too!
[02:22] {nye> if you want to play a game where slagging is the order of the day, let us know, we will stay out of it
[02:23] {vondrack> yep - this is the problem: if we consider these "public quarrels" part of Apolyton and not part of the PtWDG game, we have a problem
[02:23] {nye> if weasels rule, we want no part of it
[02:23] {vondrack> then we both better leave the game NOW
[02:23] {nye> but of course they are
[02:24] {nye> you expect sr to dump hundreds of hours into a game and not feel that he identifies with it?
[02:24] {vondrack> perhaps I expressed myself wrong... what I meant is that most of this public bull**** is just that - game-related bull****
[02:25] {vondrack> if taken seriously in the out-of-game context
[02:25] {vondrack> then it is a very good reason to leave the game, yes
[02:25] {nye> or change the game
[02:25] {nye> that is the choice.
[02:25] {vondrack> ok, shall we try changing togas and his kin? do you feel up to the task?
[02:26] {vondrack> since it is not the game you would have to change - it is the players playing it
[02:26] {vondrack> remember ISDG
[02:26] {nye> lies, and being weasels have never been a part of apolyton. i would suggest that people who want to be that way look for change
[02:27] {nye> they would all be toast within 15 seconds on the civ2 forum
[02:27] {vondrack> well, I have found out people like you or me are in the minority
[02:27] {nye> unfortunate.
[02:27] {vondrack> even my own team is difficult to be kept "in line" sometimes
[02:27] {nye> i will tilt at my windmills though.
[02:27] {vondrack> I have teammates I honestly hate
[02:27] {vondrack> teammate, to be precise
[02:27] {nye> sharpe?
[02:28] {vondrack> uh oh... is it that well known?
[02:28] {vondrack> but yes - he is a personification of many things
[02:28] {nye> no. you told me once before. i do not know him.
[02:28] {vondrack> ah, I see
[02:28] {vondrack> many things I disagree with very strongly
[02:29] {vondrack> like cowardness, opportunism, inability to stand in one's word
[02:29] {vondrack> I thought we would be playing a game
[02:29] {nye> oh oh
[02:29] {vondrack> of grand alliances
[02:29] {nye> i hoped so too
[02:29] {vondrack> honour, dignity, and such
[02:29] {vondrack> sorry, bad place, nye
[02:30] {vondrack> we would have to go somewhere else
[02:30] {vondrack> I have realized this quite some time ago
[02:30] {nye> to be honest, once beta is gone, or silent. things will settle down
[02:30] {vondrack> people are too keen on winning
[02:30] {vondrack> I very much hope so
[02:30] {nye> go somewhere else?
[02:30] {vondrack> like play a different game
[02:30] {nye> ahh. ok.
[02:31] {nye> take yourself back...
[02:31] {vondrack> just with people we know understand the concept
[02:31] {nye> back to the invasion of iraq...
[02:31] {nye> back to when that info guy was funny
[02:32] {nye> when beta first fashioned himself after al-shrif
[02:32] {nye> it was funny, yes?
[02:32] {vondrack> more interested in having fun, experiencing things/feelings scarce in the real world, rather than just winning
[02:32] {vondrack> yes, it was
[02:32] {nye> yes, but he adopted it.
[02:32] {nye> he made smears a part of the routine.
[02:33] {nye> and others accept it because 'gs is a bunch of *****'
[02:33] {nye> bah!
[02:33] {nye> but up the swords, or die!
[02:33] {vondrack>
)[02:34] {nye> that is our feeling, and why i think things will calm down once vox is dealt with one way or the other
[02:34] {vondrack> mind you, though, it's not Beta who made others think 'gs is a bunch of *****' (if there is anyone truly thinking so, which I am not that sure of)
[02:34] {vondrack> he just chimed in with feeling that existed even before
[02:34] {vondrack> feelings
[02:35] {nye> no, that has been a concerted effort, and some self inflicted wounds
[02:35] {nye>
[02:35] {vondrack> LoL
[02:35] {vondrack> @ self-inflicted wounds
[02:35] {nye> yes. funny they are
[02:35] {nye> man.
[02:36] {nye> of course, togas has got to have a very good rep about now as well
[02:36] {vondrack> you BET!
[02:36] {nye> hehe
[02:36] {nye> he is irreplaceable in the isdg, but for an internal game...
[02:36] {vondrack> and sadly - he took RPers as a team with him
[02:37] {vondrack> since Togas=RPers for most people
[02:37] {vondrack> their members mimic his methods and behaviour
[02:37] {nye> yeah. not all though\
[02:37] {vondrack> considering them great
[02:37] {vondrack> yes, not all
[02:37] {nye> some of them have fine minds of their own
[02:37] {vondrack> sure
[02:38] {vondrack> the problem is that this game is a damn hard exercise in learning to distinguish
[02:38] {vondrack> between the game and reality
[02:38] {vondrack> between an individual and team
[02:38] {nye> but, should people have to?
[02:39] {nye> should people have to think, will this reflect on me if i stay part of this team?
[02:39] {vondrack> sure not
[02:40] {vondrack> but it is usually not up to them
[02:40] {vondrack> others effectively decide
[02:40] {vondrack> if Togas does a diplo boo-boo, his mates can do little
[02:40] {vondrack> harm is done
[02:40] {vondrack> the "difficulty" of the "exercise"
[02:40] {vondrack> is in that
[02:40] {vondrack> OTHERS
[02:40] {vondrack> need to realize it was Togas, not RPers
[02:40] {nye> yes
[02:41] {vondrack> and that is what often does not happen
[02:41] {nye> one action, of course
[02:41] {vondrack> yes
[02:41] {nye> but wehat if all the plans and actions carried out as a team are then presented to the public forum under false pretenses?
[02:42] {nye> and then others pick up the refrain, and scold the baaaaaad gs'ers?
[02:42] {nye> gs says, fvck you all, and then you die :0
[02:43] {vondrack> you=GS or you=others?
[02:43] {nye> you can come to mean any others who favour the side of lies and weasel words.
[02:44] {nye> seriously, we are pissed
[02:44] {nye> theseus' thread is an attempt to provide an escape valve
[02:45] {nye> don;t know if it will work
[02:45] {vondrack> see, the problem is that your internal code of ethics is just yours
[02:45] {vondrack> nobody else agreed to it
[02:45] {vondrack> might have
[02:45] {vondrack> but never did
[02:45] {vondrack> so asking others to adhere to it
[02:45] {nye> ok.
[02:45] {vondrack> may and may not work
[02:45] {vondrack> as you said
[02:45] {vondrack> others like to play this game differently
[02:46] {nye> but don't ***** when we kill a weasle civ.
[02:46] {nye> cause that is what we wiull do
[02:46] {nye> you better all come now if you want to stop that
[02:47] {vondrack> we did whatever we were able to - but we have our own goals to stick to
[02:47] {nye> or maybe, we should just self destruct, and leave the rest to the mud patch
[02:47] {vondrack> he, that might be a good idea
[02:47] {vondrack> perhaps another crash problem would solve it?
[02:47] {vondrack> don't bother looking for the cause next time
[02:47] {nye> because, most memebrs of gs have zero interest in playing a game by beta's rules
[02:48] {vondrack> nye, it is not BETA's rules - he just adopted whatever rules prevailed in the game before all this started
[02:48] {nye> heh. yeah
[02:48] {nye> asnd that is what we at gs object to
[02:48] {nye> the turning of the public forum into a place of weasels
[02:49] {nye> we ahve no interest
[02:49] {vondrack> perhaps we should agree upon that there will be no public discussions regarding the game?
[02:49] {nye> and, i doubt the owners do either, for that matter
[02:49] {vondrack> but then... it might take out some fun from the game
[02:49] {vondrack> oh, well
[02:49] {vondrack> no perfect solution
[02:50] {nye> fun? being lieed about and having the chorus chirp in is fun?
[02:50] {vondrack> no perfect people to work with
[02:50] {vondrack> no - I was referring to the period where it WAS fun
[02:50] {nye> let me know what you think of when you enjoy that 'fun'
[02:50] {vondrack> like al-Sahaf stuff and all
[02:50] {nye> go back before that
[02:50] {nye> then it was fun
[02:51] {nye> the al-Sahaf was turned it very much unfun for the targets.
[02:51] {nye> *was what
[02:52] {vondrack> sorry to hear that - it is a bit difficult to realize that for me, since I have always been keeping in mind it is all just bull****...
[02:52] {nye> and to be honest. gs would set out to destroy any civ that took it up.
[02:52] {vondrack> but I understand
[02:52] {vondrack> it might be different if it was aimed at me
[02:52] {nye> yes. if it were you
[02:53] {vondrack> but I mean - c'mon... all those faked pictures, poems, and stuff like that
[02:53] {vondrack> it was fun
[02:53] {vondrack> I do not think anyone cared about if Voxes were "right" attacking you or not
[02:53] {vondrack> everybody knew what the truth was
[02:54] {vondrack> and even Beta admitted they simply wanted to attck
[02:54] {nye> it was fine, to a point.
[02:54] {nye> that point passed a little while ago
[02:54] {nye> betas did not knwo when to stop
[02:54] {vondrack> yes, agreed
[02:54] {nye> that cost vox mightily
[02:54] {vondrack> my email to him last night was pretty harsh
[02:55] {vondrack> though he is just a human, too
[02:55] {vondrack> it is often difficult to realize when to stop
[02:55] {vondrack> I have that problem, too
[02:55] {nye> gs went from a minority demanding extinction, to a majority, in one thread
[02:56] {nye> now, it will be an effort to allow exodus
[02:56] {nye> and we don;t care what the weasels think of that
[02:58] {nye> sorry, i went on a rant.
[02:58] {vondrack> np
[02:58] {vondrack> as I said
[02:59] {vondrack> Lego has its goals and we are going to stick to them
[02:59] {vondrack> if we can make a good deal with you along
[02:59] {vondrack> it would be great
[02:59] {vondrack> if you feel the deal is not good
[02:59] {vondrack> then there will be no deal
[02:59] {vondrack> it is simple
[03:00] {nye> i would like to end the crap, and get back to a game that we can enjoy
[03:00] {nye> all of us
[03:00] {vondrack> I will be honest: I will NEVER EVER join a game like this again
[03:00] {vondrack> too emotionally exhausting for me
[03:00] {nye> i suspect that feeling is shared
[03:00] {vondrack> I have been on the verge of quitting so many times
[03:01] {nye> and beta is your friend!
[03:01] {vondrack> it is only the fact that I invested so much effort into this that I do not want to simply give up
[03:01] {nye> same here
[03:01] {vondrack> yes - believe me or not, Beta really became one of my closest friends (on personal level)
[03:01] {vondrack> like you
[03:01] {vondrack> like Tiberius
[03:01] {vondrack> and few others
[03:01] {nye> i know.
[03:02] {nye> i do not hate him
[03:02] {vondrack> I know it may be difficult to understand, but its that I can see other "faces" of him
[03:02] {vondrack> like Trip, too
[03:02] {vondrack> yes
[03:02] {nye> i think he did not consider well what he was doing
[03:02] {nye> as did not many others
[03:02] {vondrack> exactly - as did not many others
[03:02] {nye> but, some did.
[03:03] {nye> surprise, surprise
[03:03] {vondrack> I seriously doubt you can expect anything else with this many people involved
[03:03] {vondrack> LoL
[03:03] {nye> i think we can expect better. we have to demand it though
[03:03] {vondrack> anyway, nye - I gotta run, promised Karina a biking trip
[03:03] {nye> and i promised her a city.
[03:03] {vondrack>
[03:03] {nye> take care of her
[03:03] {vondrack> yes, thank you!
[03:03] {vondrack> will do
[03:03] {vondrack> take care
[03:04] {nye> you too
[03:04] {vondrack> bye
[03:04] {nye> bye
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 03:04:28 2003
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