Announcement

**zeit** · June 8, 2003, 18:55

I couldn't agree less on some of the replies in the public message thread, we're quite out of line in terms of concucting diplomacy. However, I don't share your pessimistic view regarding the relations we have with all the teams in general. For example, we were just invited by both ND, and GoW for a chat, in this time when it is so popular to "hate" us, perhaps it is a sign that things aren't so.

In fact, UnOrthOdOx said in one of his last PMs (I don't recall whether or not I logged that one, it might have contained alot of unrelated stuff about Jung and the game) that he finds diplomacy conduction with this team the most enjoyable of all- this could be outright flattery, but I have a sense that UnO is not the one to do so.

We also had a long correspondence with HotE of the GoW, and I consider our relations with them to be fairly good. Our attempt at a tech alliance with Lego was a worthy one, and I do remember several compliments coming from them. True, we might have been overly enthusiastic at that time, which might have scared them off, but I do think that was a step at the right direction, and a true diplomacy conduction.

I think this team knows how to run a good diplomacy- what we definitely need is more collaboration in the FM, and do more of what we did and seemed to work. Togas' slander about our isolationism has no real basis, and I'm sure everyone outside RP knows that.
Keeping in mind our hubris is always good, but I don't think we need to revise our entire diplomacy effort, just do more of it, in an effort to make connection and not necessarily make deals.

**Dominae** · June 8, 2003, 19:04

Re: ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
2- We are not properly sesitized to the other nation
The AI does not exist. We are not used to RELATING to the AI. We MANIPULATED it.
HUMANS.... Prefection has no place in human nature (besides an idealized concept) and is outright unwelcome in group dymanics. Groups are NEVER perfect.

A good list of thoughts, IMO. The one quoted above is the best.

In discussing our relations with other teams, we have always assumed that if we do things honorably and fairly, then they should have nothing to complain about concerning us. The problem is that we have rarely taken the other teams' point of view on things. What we consider to be "right" and "just" and all that may not be the same as some other team. Our expectation that we can lay down the ground rules and play by them perfectly has grown out of our habit of manipulating the AI. "If I do this, I get this effect" is not always a true when dealing with humans, even if it seems like the right thing to do (expecting other teams to treat us fairly, for instance).

I'm not sure where we go from this. My humble suggestion is that we collectively realise that our diplo is in shambles at this point, and work real hard at kissing some arse. Unless we can get a foothold on Bob very soon, we simply do not have the resources to neglect diplomacy, or even continue as we have previously.

It's perhaps unfair that we're in this situation. I believe our diplomacy and dealings with other teams were pretty good initially. But now we're the "bad boys", and, for our continued success, we have to shake that image.

Dominae

**ManicStarSeed** · June 8, 2003, 19:08

Zeit, I think that you are right.

I am only speaking in extreams to make some points.

It is important that we all listen to our instincts and think how we would feel if we were outside reading what we tend to put out there.

Dominae, You would make a good diplomat. You tend (from your posting history ) to understand the "other side" from a human level

Mss

**Theseus** · June 8, 2003, 19:09

I agree with you both.

We are an easy target of slander, remember. Thus, even though we may have very good diplo relations with individuals (esp. in chat), the public forum, literally, is a dangerous place for us.

Using the USA as an example, think of personal relationships between, say, senior personnel of the US State Dep't and its equivalent in France & Germany, versus the nonsense that goes on in the UN.

(please, no political discussion, it's just an example, and if it shows my bias, sorry, but please let it go

)

So let's stay on track with our formal diplo efforts, including personal / semi-personal relationships... but let's also think a LOT more about what get's posted in public fora.

**Dominae** · June 8, 2003, 19:11

zeit, I disagree. Our reputation is tainted, and no team would would hesitate at the chance to take us out (thankfully, we're on an island!). Ideally, we would not have so much publicity, either good or bad. The fact that other teams are contacting us is no more than an indication of our fame, IMO.

Dominae

**ManicStarSeed** · June 8, 2003, 19:16

Re: Re: ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems

Originally posted by Dominae

I'm not sure where we go from this. My humble suggestion is that we collectively realise that our diplo is in shambles at this point, and work real hard at kissing some arse.

Originally posted by Theseus

-We are an easy target of slander, remember.
-So let's stay on track with our formal diplo efforts, including personal / semi-personal relationships...

-Let's also think a LOT more about what get's posted in public fora.

**zeit** · June 8, 2003, 19:26

no team would would hesitate at the chance to take us out

I don't know how you got to this decisive conclusion. Being contacted doesn't mean we're just famous, it also means we have a chance to understand and be understood, and I'm sure those who sent their invitation realize that, and that it motivates them like it motivates us.

For example, the chats we've had with the GoW- they didn't like Vox, and thought we were allies, because of our tech partnership. We couldn't understand how they got to this conclusion, and were quite shocked with the accusation. Both teams suffered from a lack of understanding, on worked according to a different set of rules.
After the chat, however, I did feel like something was learned on both sides, and that tensions were reduced. It wasn't just saying hi, and not specifically negotiating anything, it was getting to understand each other, which is what we both wanted to (or so I believe).

**notyoueither** · June 9, 2003, 04:14

Actually, what I see happening currently is that Bobians are realising that Vox is going down hard, soon. They are scrambling because that disrupts their power equations. That is why they are suddenly more talkative, I think.

Other than that, yes, I agree with most of what MSS has said and wants to do.

**Arrian** · June 9, 2003, 09:34

I think a lot could be helped by having more of those little chats, like the ones recently with RP. It typically generates goodwill.

I agree our diplomatic position isn't great right now, and I actually agree with what Dominae posted in the public forum thread a lot more than I let on. After my first post, which was designed to get a reaction from RP, my main purpose was damage control. But I should probably just try to keep my trap shut, being a general, not a diplomat.

-Arrian

**zeit** · June 9, 2003, 16:40

Actually, what I see happening currently is that Bobians are realising that Vox is going down hard, soon. They are scrambling because that disrupts their power equations. That is why they are suddenly more talkative, I think.

I havn't really thought about from that perspective, and really makes sense. As this thread is not about foreign intention, asesssment, but more on the "what to do" affair- we should probably discuss this: How do we want to represent the new GS?

-The one that is aware of its great power, it's continental domination, and is also aware of the fear this invokes in other teams. We can't allow ourselves to say: "we're not that powerful", but we must do more than not saying that.

Please add your ideas on this issue- the aftermath of a crisis is a perfect opportunty for a public "face-lift".

**Arrian** · June 9, 2003, 16:48

But we AREN'T that powerful. Our "continent" is just a large island.

-Arrian

**ManicStarSeed** · June 9, 2003, 17:12

Originally posted by Arrian
But we AREN'T that powerful. Our "continent" is just a large island.

-Arrian

True, but once we "own" it, we will need to keep a low profile and build, build and build. We must appear content with our continent for a while until another opportunity presents itself...

I did tell RP last night that we would satisfied with posessing our island. I just do not know how long befor we aren't satisfied.

Mss

**zeit** · June 9, 2003, 17:16

I did tell RP last night that we would satisfied with posessing our island. I just do not know how long befor we aren't satisfied

**Arrian** · June 9, 2003, 17:27

I wonder if we could somehow manage to hole up and squeeze enough out of our island to win without making any further territorial acquisitions.

Frankly, gaining a chunk of Bob and keeping it ain't gonna be a walk in the park. Our GA is pretty much blown, whereas everyone else has yet to have theirs (besides Vox, who are doomed). If we invest our precious resources in the military assest necessary for a Bobian expedition, failure of such an expedition essentially means failure in the game overall.

On the other hand, if we go builder, we may be vulnerable to invasion and/or be out-built by the other teams due to their superior land (Lego in particular).

Anyway, we have little reason to get cocky.

-Arrian

Announcement

ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems

ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems

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