Turn 105, 470 BC

[Theseus]

What are we going to do about the Vox units on the mountains between Monsoon and D-ville?

(those bastards )

[notyoueither]

I have a feeling we are rather isolated diplomatically.

[notyoueither]

Damn busy server dp.

[Aeson]

If we add 5 workers to Tempest it's a swing of about 15gpt (-5 support, ~+10 extra commerce). Then factor in 20g (or 10g with Leo's) per unit for the eventual fast mover upgrades and I think it's worth it. Cyclone can replace the Workers rather quickly if/when we need them.

[nbarclay]

Aeson, what does bosting Tempest to size 12 do to the availability of high-production tiles for other cities? Also, have you run an analysis of what mountains we'll need to have mined to get the most out of the Tempest/Arashi/Sandstorm combination? I don't view reducing numbers of workers to reduce maintenance costs as a net positive if the workers have things to do that will boost our longer-term prosperity, especially when clearing jungles is going to be such a major issue once we clear Vox out.

[nbarclay]

By the way, I think I just noticed an optomization for Tempest area tile usage. If we would irrigate the plains at Tempest 7, we could shift a Tempest laborer from the forest at Arashi 4 to a mountain (assuming the mountains aren't all committed to other uses), balancing out food and shields. That, in turn, would let us chop Arashi 4 and maybe even irrigate through it so Whirlwind, Arashi, and Monsoon can have the food to work more land tiles.

[Aeson]

Obviously a Worker is worth more than its 1gpt upkeep, but it's upkeep is still a 'loss' to be factored into the overall value. I'm not sure they are worth 5-7gpt (for the duration of the growth they bypass) given how fast we can replace them and the available jobs they can be finishing at this time. By the time it's safe to start improving to the North again we should be able to have a large number of Workers in any case.

If we get a Leader for a FP the Workers are probably best kept around to improve our FP core. Otherwise the production/commerce available from the North is going to be dismal for quite some time regardless of how fast we can improve the terrain.

I don't have a save or scenario to look at anymore, so I'm not completely sure how a size 12 Tempest impacts the other cities. IIRC we use all the Hills in Tempest's radius for it.

In the short term it might make a difference of a turn on a few builds in Arashi. Depends on what we are building though. Unless we are pumping Arashi up with Workers too the smaller size all but elminates the tradeoff.

SS I have no idea about. I was using it as a Worker pump in my scenario, and it was further North with access to 2 bonus Grassland. I think we'll have SS on size 6 for quite a while, which would use 2 FP's, 2 irrigated Deserts, a Mountain, and one of Hurricane's Plains once Hurricane has to back off production. The Mountain SS needs is already mined (though a Mountain on the River works better until Arashi is using 3).

The main effect is on WW and OG, as they don't have access to any hills. In most cases Tempest's lower waste means we're getting better use out of those tiles than we would out on the coast. Certain builds/production levels would be even.

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I'd like to see us have 3 'huge' production cities, and then start another wonder prebuild or start building infrastructure in one city while the other two keep the pressure on Vox. Hurricane would be my first choice for switching from Military, as there might still be time to get the Collosus (doubtful though ), and the Palace should give us enough leeway to make it to Leo's if not.

[Aeson]

IIRC, that Plains mine is only needed to get Tempest to 30 shields per turn. In our GA, the mined Plains and Forest gives us 6 shields, and an irrigated Plains and Mountain mine gives 5. If we're going to wait to build Tempest up, it would be best to irrigate through. Gives us a bit more Commerce.

We could get Arashi up to size 12 with the same production by irrigating some Grasslands and using more Mountains. Corruption might cause a problem with the luxury rate at that pop though.

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Was the Grassland we just uncovered by Monsoon with the Forest chop bonus or not?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I have a feeling we are rather isolated diplomatically.

I don't think so, it rather seems, that the interest in this game sunk dramatically within all teams. There seems to be a small working core in every team to keep the game going, but not enough for extended diplomacy. There isn't that amount of "ambassadors" and "diplomats" around anymore, like it was in the early game. I think the fun (read: spam) game PtWDG II dragged away a lot of attention.

[Shiber]

That one seems to have died down as well. There's still some spam in the team threads but AFAIK noone is organizing the game start.
Same goes for the SP-PTWDG. Turnchat #7 is coming up... hopefully soon it will pick up back again, and this one will as well.

[Shiber]

Do we have a diplo thread for GoW? The only one that I can see has reached 500 posts and was closed.

[zeit]

We have a second one, somewhere.

Out of boredome, I think I'll send a message to Master Zen- he's pretty active, and supposedly taken the role of Hot_Enamel...

I'll just tell him what's going on- is he our ambassador, and also they wish to renew diplo talks and perhaps consider trades (like Chivalry!).

Is that okay with everyone?

[vulture]

I've been enjoying the benefits if a 4-day weekend this week, so I've only just seen the last two turns worth of action. Looking good. Nice to have the house to ourselves again, without the guests-who-wouldn't-leave. But what have Vox been up to for the last few turns. We've not seen any reinforcement of their position in the spinebreakers (yet) but they must be doing something, and I can't imagine they are just sitting around waiting for us to come after them, unless they have been effectively paralysed by our scouting galleys. But unless they've gone overboard on spearmen, they have another 10 or so immortals hiding somewhere, and surely they have some plan for them (aside from defending Elipolis?)

Oh, and great work everyone on the last few turns (and the planning of Inchon and Inchoff).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Aeson
Was the Grassland we just uncovered by Monsoon with the Forest chop bonus or not?

Not, unfortunately.

In regard to Tempest, both an irrigated plains and a mountain produce shields, so both get an extra shield in a GA. The irrigated plains would go from 1 to 2, and the mined mountain from 3 to 4. So we'd get the same six shields as a mined plains (3) and a forest (3). Right?

In terms of shield counts, a lot depends on what we do with the shields. The long-term value of building a temple in O.G. (to get to the whale) and courthouses, harbors, and aqueducts in O.G. and Whirlwind is considerable. And right now, Whirlwind nets four shields working the hill but only two working an irrigated desert, so the waste situation does not clearly argue against giving Whirlwind good tiles to work.

With that balanced against the incremental value of horsemen over WCs (and keep in mind that some of our WCs will almost certainly die, making their upgrade costs irrelevant), and with us still having useful things for our workers to do even within our existing borders (we have almost none of the Spinebreakers even roaded, much less mined, and we still have one unimproved hill by Whirlwind), I'm inclined to delay adding workers to Tempest beyond what's needed for 20 shields at least for a while.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by vulture
I've been enjoying the benefits if a 4-day weekend this week, ...

You should've remained in Germany, and you'd have your 4-day weekend still ahead . Tomorrow Ascension, where the whole Bavaria (and the rest of Germany as well) hangs out drunk, then an intermediate, pre-worked Friday, where somebody has to fill out his tax statement (as it's finally due) , and then the conventional weekend. My wife already grumbles, as she has to feed me four days in a row.