Vox

[Shiber]

We need to decide how to proceed. Normally I'd be in favor of continuing the regular discussions in the radical idea thread, but IMHO it is taking too long.
We have to make our decision. I won't mind if we decide to 'Drive Vox to the sea', I just think we need to make up our minds, and I want to know where the team is headed.

For reference, here is a message that I suggested that I send to the person in Vox who contacted me about peace. Its purpose is to let them know what we would expect to receive for peace, and make them make the first move and send the first formal proposal.

You showed renewed interest in peace, so I'm letting you know what sort of thing GS would agree to:

- GS gets everything up to and including Eliopolis. Eliopolis will be abandoned with a settler by GS and relocated in order not to block the 1-tile isthmus.
- After the treaty is signed, Vox and GS will remain in a state of war in-game for 10 turns. The reasoning behind this is that GS is currently enjoying a happiness bonus due to negative war weariness and would like to extend it.
- GS will reserve the right to attack any Voxian troops located within GS cultural borders by any means it sees fit during and after negotiations, excluding specific cases that Vox would discuss with GS. Should our relations reach normalcy, the same rule would apply to Vox.

Please understand that we do not see peace as a viable option unless these terms are met. They are not negotiable - however, we are open for negotiations on other issues.
Additionally, on the matter of iron: we realize that taking all the land up to and including Eliopolis would leave Vox without iron. Therefore, we are willing to trade iron to Vox completely free of charge for as long as we are in peace, meaning starting from 10 turns after this treaty is signed. In case of emergency, e.g. Vox is invaded by Bob and needs iron for essential upgrades, GS will make an exception and begin iron trade immediately; however, once the issue is resolved, Vox will have to declare war on GS again, only in-game of course, to complete the 10 turns requirement.
Finally, we ask that you do not delay the progress of the game intentionally because of these negotiations. Should you do so, we will cease contact at once. How about this new bit?

Please discuss this within your team, add whatever you want to add upon the concept described above and send back a formal message detailing your idea of a possible peace treaty between GS and Vox.

[vulture]

I voted for sending them unofficial demands, to see what their reaction is. Although I really expect that they will send them back with the footnote 'over my cold, decaying body', or something equivalent.

Things is, they'd be right, too. Although we won't make peace on terms that leave Vox as a threat to us, any such peace essentially means that they are out of the game as contenders, and will be wiped out by us or one of the Bob civs before too long. Even if we have no plans to kill them, they will assume we do, and will fight now. So I don't see peace happening unless they are all bored of the game.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by vulture
Although I really expect that they will send them back with the footnote 'over my cold, decaying body', or something equivalent.

That can be arranged.

Things is, they'd be right, too. Although we won't make peace on terms that leave Vox as a threat to us, any such peace essentially means that they are out of the game as contenders, and will be wiped out by us or one of the Bob civs before too long. Even if we have no plans to kill them, they will assume we do, and will fight now. So I don't see peace happening unless they are all bored of the game.

I don't know.
On one hand, I probably wouldn't accept it if I were them... but on the other hand, Vox might get cowardly and agree to our terms, with minor revisions perhaps. They too must be taking note of the scary curve in our power graph - they must be realizing our production capacity, and now that we have Sun Tzu's, they must fear that we'll be overrunning them with Medieval Infantry backed with Pikemen soon and then they won't be so lucky to get an offer for peace anymore.

[Harovan]

No peace for Vox.

At least not we offer it. If they want peace, let them beg for it.

[Shiber]

Could the person who voted 'other' specify please?
Edit: x-posted with Aeson.

[Aeson]

Let them make the first move diplomatically.

[nbarclay]

Shiber, it seems like this is taking a long time due to delays in the game, but the reality is that we've only played two turns since the Radical Idea thread started. We have no consensus on our side regarding whether we're willing to make peace short of expelling Vox from the continent. Further, Vox's military is still showing as average compared with ours, which is not an ideal position to enable us to impose ruinous demands. I think we're better off waiting another turn or two to move farther on the peace issue, (1) in case events in the war might help us get closer to a consensus within our team and (2) in the hope that the balance of power will shift more clearly in our favor so if we do offer peace, Vox will be more willing to consider demands that leave them with very little chance of ever being competitive. (Edit: I voted "other", and it took me a while to write my explanation message.)

[Dominae]

I vote for driving them off the continent.

There will come a point when our military is Strong compared to theirs, and most of us will feel sorry for Vox. I say we should put those feelings aside and finish the job.

Down to a handful of cities, they'll hardly be an asset to us, and we'll just have to clean up later anyway. If anyone can think of a reason why we should keep them alive (other than "we can use our GA for other things", which I'm already considering), I would like to hear it.

Once their Immortal stacks are under control, Vox will become a punching bag for us. Before they can get us into any diplomatic trouble, I suggest we just punch that bag until it splits at the seams (sorry for the over-aggressive imagery...I'm not that angry, really).


Dominae

[Arrian]

KILL MAIM DESTROY PILLAGE BURN!!!

Seriously, though... I honestly think we should continue beating them to a bloody pulp in-game, while informing them via diplomatic channels that peace *might* be a possibility, but it would have to be a really juicy offer. And then make them come up with an offer. A SPECIFIC offer, not a general "ok, we're willing to be your vassal... um... what do you think?" I don't want to put ourselves in a bargaining position where we're essentially bidding against ourselves (we make an offer, they say "no, too much" then we make revised offer, etc). That's bad negotiating strategy, IMO. Make THEM come up with an offer, and then we can come back with either a counteroffer or merely a "No, sorry."

So I voted for the third option.

-Arrian

[OPD]

"Other"

I say do it the American way and offer peace for something ridiculous then bargain down.

This could piss them off a bit too much but we may also get more than we would have expected.

[alva]

"other"

But agree basically with Aeson and SR (and others), let them come to us first. So my vote is a variant on the third option.

[zeit]

I don't think there has to be a peace treaty, nor any sort of bargaining. Given Vox's agression, false accusations and deception, we can only accept their unconditional surrender, following the guidelines Shiber proposes in his message.

This means that the agreement is non-negotiatiable, and that it is brought unofficially before we ratify it.

Even if they don't accept it, it will instill doubt and uncertanty in their hearts, and will make our job at taking what is left of Vox's army in our turf much easier, as Vox might think they have a way out of this war- so why dedicate themselves for an all out offensive at this point?

It will save us alot of trouble if Vox keeps it's head down and lets us pound them slowly but surely, untill they finally break.

But, I agree that we need to wait a few turns, so that we gain some more on them, and than propose a unconditional surrender, in which they give us what we actually want, without negotiations.

"Other" from me.

[ManicStarSeed]

I am against entertaining any idea of peace untill we have captured and renamed D'Ville, then on our way to the neck by ellioplis. Then we can invite them to make an offer good enough that we want to take it.

Personally, unconditional surrender is the only thing acceptable besides unconditional surrender.

Another thought... pushing the unconditional part, we should demand that one (or more) of our players are given full access to their private forums.

so I am voting for other.

mss

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Dominae
Down to a handful of cities, they'll hardly be an asset to us, and we'll just have to clean up later anyway.

Vox apparently has all kinds of fantasies of immortals fighting alongside WCs on Bob turf. Of course, none of us sees Vox as an asset - but I still think that getting everything up to and including the neck for free is better than having to fight for it.
As much as I care about Vox, we can sign some sort of a deal now and take them out later. Naturally, the deal will have to be worded in a way that will allow us to legally do so, and we must not encourage their fantasies of becoming our vassals for the rest of the game or fighting alongside GS against some common enemy.

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I am against entertaining any idea of peace untill we have captured and renamed D'Ville, then on our way to the neck by ellioplis. Then we can invite them to make an offer good enough that we want to take it.

That's the problem - once we go all the way until Eliopolis, they'll be left with nothing more of value to give us... unless we sign an agreement where they give us every city but their capital and we found a city on some yet unoccupied area in one of Lego's landmasses, give it to Vox and then conquer their capital - effectively, sending them to exile in Legoland.

To sum up, what I think is best for us right now is to come to Vox with clear demands: give us everything up to and including Eliopolis, we will attack your troops still in our territory and remain in in-game war for X turns to enjoy the war unweariness effect, then we'll provide you with a supply of iron, END OF DISCUSSION, accept this offer or it's game over for you. If they don't accept it immediately, continue the war as planned, catapulting on and killing their immortals, and at some point pressure them with a message such as 'Our previous offer remains for this turn. However, starting from next turn, we will add the condition of one Voxian slave unit transferred to GS for every additional Voxian military unit that we kill'. Get them to end the war on their part as soon as possible so we can focus on long-term issues such as building the Colossus during our GA and before Legoland does (anyone who wants to see Legoland get their peaceful GA after we've blown half of our own GA on units, raise your arms) and building a force of fast movers and galleys to destroy Vox in a just few turns about 20-25 turns after we've reached the agreement, and then direct this highly mobile naval invasion force at RP while the rest of the world is still in shock and is not expecting an attack from GS which has just finished a war.

[Harovan]

No deal with Vox. They have shown that they are untrustworthy, and the right place for them is outside of the game. I might agree to let them escape to Bob, if they meet me in a good mood, but generally my opinion is, Vox has to go. By no means should we start negotiations.