Does Vox Survive?

[nbarclay]

We've discussed the issue of whether to let Vox live enough that I think a poll is in order. I don't view this as binding, but I'd like to get a stronger sense of which option people actually prefer.

[DeepO]

Woohoow, I'm representing 100% of GS opinion thus far

DeepO

[notyoueither]

Good idea, Nathan.

This will be very handy to decide our war aims, and then we will be closer to being all on the same page vis-a-vis our stance.

One thing though, I strongly suggest that any harsh terms, like if the first three options are leading, be kept absolutely amongst ourselves for now. Unless we want Vox to go Kamikaze. That could have unfortunate consequences.

[DeepO]

Even if we would go for the less harsh terms, this should be absolutely private, of course

DeepO

[nbarclay]

From a Voxian perspective, I view the third option as a long-shot gamble, but probably not as long a long shot as taking on Gathering Storm now that the balance of power has shifted. Vox still has one of the two top militaries on the planet right now. If they can get their surviving forces back home safely and keep building troops, and if war breaks out on Bob while they still have a respectable military, they might be able to grab enough territory to do okay. The chances of everything falling into place just right for them aren't all that good, so they'd have to decide how much an outside chance is worth to them.

[Arrian]

Peace only if driven from the continent.

Our continent. OURS. End of story.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

I voted with Arrian. Drive them into the sea.


Do we have a killer instinct?

[Arrian]

I did sorta mitigate my position in the other thread, so I'll clarify:

I prefer taking them out. Hence my vote. However, as with several other matters, I'm willing to compromise if the majority feels otherwise. However, anything short of GS control of the neck and all points south would be totally unacceptable. I'd probably have to resign as Co-General... I would have failed to do my job if the team decided to make peace for less.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

I'm fairly sure the minimum that will be acceptable to the team as a whole will be the neck and all South of it (Eliopolis being ours, or more precisely the hill S of it).

I think even I agree with that at this point because it is the best gaurantee against future misbehaviour.

OTOH, Vox is still a viable vassal/ally. There are many techs they can get in 40 that would save us from having to research them ourselves. They also seem to be adept at trading. Think about the freeze that has descended on our trading with everyone else. It is very possible that Vox may be our best leverage to break that embargo.

Also, they do have a very respectable military, and will have that for some time assuming they do not choose a win or die view. No matter how things break on Bob, having them just across the straights from Bob would be useful.

My thought du jour...

ND and GoW stick together. War breaks out with RP. We go for RP, our vally (new word) goes for GoW's Eastern holdings. There is no law we have to both support the same side, is there? Do we really want one of the Bob civs to gain greatly?

At a minimum for that to work, Vox would need to preserve a useful army and a base to be able to support it (as despots/monarchs that is not a huge issue). However, most importantly, we would have to leave them with dignity intact. Any talk of vassals and what-not could very well send the deal south right there. The members of Vox want to participate and have fun. I'm not sure they are up for humiliation.

To make this go a little longer... I don't see them accepting these terms at this time. They have a very respectable force still in the field. We should... motivate them while avoiding overly inflaming them and forcing us to annihilate so much that they lose threat value to the civs on Bob. The destruction of all or part of the seven wanderers would be a good start.

[Arrian]

Yeah, but think of it from another angle:

1 or more Bobian civs come after us. Our "vally" could (would) most likely be swayed by them to betray us (again) and help out. That "respectable military" of theirs could be a problem for us again. Even if we have a nice hill city with pikes in it, they could still hurt us.

Look, if I actually trusted them, I wouldn't especially mind peace. We could built markets, libraries, temples & maybe the Colossus.

But I don't trust them. They are feeling weak, so they are starting to grovel a bit. But the second they feel strong (promises of alliance from Bobian civs), their mood could swing again.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

If we can take Arashi 9 and cut their seven-immortal attack force off from home (assuming they're retreating), that will force Vox to take a very close look at what is likely to happen next. Unless they can pull together enough forces to clear the mountain, that force would be pretty much a write-off no matter what they do unless they can make peace. I think that would be the time to present them with unpalatable peace terms if we're willing to have peace; they can make peace on our terms and keep those seven immortals (six of them vets) for future operations elsewhere, or their most powerful single troop concentration dies with few if any casualties on our side.

[Arrian]

By the way, regarding any negotiations which might take place: please, whoever is doing it, negotiate from strength. Be not afraid of saying "nope, sorry, that's not good enough" and walking away. I do NOT want to bid against ourselves here. If we have the advantage (which I think we do), we should press it.

But again... how in the world can we trust them? I still think we should kill 'em.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

For a Bobian to come after us they would have to construct quite a large navy, and we would see the ships coming a mile off.

If we wait to go to Bob until RP can come straight across, then I believe the game is lost, kill Vox or no killl Vox. We will max our production soon. RP has a looooooong way to go before reaching their potential. If we allow them to come anywhere close to that potential, then we have erred greatly. That is why I favour Vox living, actually. I am not thinking 'kill Vox and.. then what?' I am thinking, how do we win, and can Vox help us win? I think we can win, and Vox could be an asset in that victory. I don't favour our chances 1 against Bob.

[Arrian]

An asset is something that can be counted on. I don't exactly see Vox that way.

But I agree that we should consider our long-term goals... how do we think we can win? Right now, we're stuck on a relatively small island continent. The other teams are gonna catch & pass us, unless we figure a way to leverage our current lead into more.

I think many of us like the idea of attacking RP. But I still view that as just 1 possibility, and one that is fraught with potential pitfalls.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

NYE-

can you probe beta to see if war is going to happen on bob? they might have some clue. Its inevitible that something will go down there, which I think we can capitalize on, with or without vox, that's why I dont see them as crucial. I think we can join in the fun on bob, invited by the team getting it by 2 and thus take out one of the civs thatway.