Congratulations are in order…

[Theseus]

To GoW and ND, you’ve won, under your own conditions; for all that there are ongoing rumblings, it was still a heckuva accomplishment, and I salute you.

To GoW, for superb Machiavellian and mercenary play… it occurred to me how impressive it is that in two of your three significant military actions, you bared your neck to your allies, successfully.

To ND, I think that all the teams have found you to be a pleasure to deal with… and you miraculously found a way to survive being neighbor to the psychos in GoW!

To Vox, my god, you’re still alive!

To Legoland, you built and built well. But you had a target painted on your back from 4000BC, and I don’t know that things could have turned out much different… so you set out what you wanted to accomplish, and did so as well possible.

To Roleplay, I say that your team had more color, more joy of the game, than any other. And I miss those tasty squids.

To my own team, GS, nye has already been very eloquent about this in our private forum… we started in a rocky place, and ended in one. But I will quote the Bard in likeways: “That island of Stormia breeds very valiant creatures; their mastiffs are of unmatchable courage.”

To Lux… well, you gave us Trip!

To Trip, for having put up with us mangy lot.

And to Firaxis, for having us mangy lot as your customers and fanbase! On a more serious note, Civ3 has been an interesting and not always perfect road, but one that has given so many of us over three and a half years of enjoyment. And, again not perfectly but well enough, PTW and its patches have supported us through this so massive and impressive (and yet unknown) gaming experience. My prediction? No insult intended, but I think Civ3 will long be know as the stepping stone to Civ4. And congratulations: You’ve got Trip!!

And lastly: To Apolyton Spirit!!

[Donegeal]

A truely impressive experience. The first of its kind and I do not believe it will ever be matched unless we try another one with Civ IV, and have it be an Apolyton only game (the public forum was one of my favorite places when it wasn't covered in flames (although it was interesting even then)).

Can anyone who is close to Togas see if he would mind setting aside differences for awhile so he could also reflect on how entertaining the game was (as I am sure it was immensely intertaining before the Bobian War broke out...)? Reflections such as this cannot be complete without Togas and the RP team.

[Beta]

Theseus. Well said.

Apolyton spirit indeed!

[Jon Miller]

I would lke to play a Civ4 diplo game with all of you (incluiding RP, and Togas)

JM
(Vox would have another chance, and with Rhoth maybe even a good one )


edit: (and I include RP and Togas because apparently he left, so basically I am saying that I would like him to come back)

[Hot_Enamel]

Theseus


Well said

Many thanks to allies, competitors & teammates for an enjoyable game.

[asleepathewheel]

good game

[Rhothaerill]

Well said Theseus. Congratulations to all who played this game.

It's been fun (most of the time at least )

[vondrack]

Well said, Theseus. It's been a helluva experience.

Thanks for the game, everybody!

[Master Zen]

I want to say some things under the influence of 2 bottles of Absolute Mandarin (of course I didn't drink them all but what the heck...)

I think this demogame has been not only one of the greatest gaming experiences but also one of the greatest personal experiences in my life.

I know we went through a lot of sh*t together. Flame wars during the Voxian war, flame wars during the Bobian wars (of which I am partly responsible and am terribly ashamed of it), and now endless bickering about how the ending resulted.

I just want to say that I don't care if people decide to congratulate GoW or ND about this type of victory, I don't care if people think we deserved it or not, I simply DO care that we end this whole thing in a civil manner, showing the camaraderie that Apolyton should be demonstrating in times like this.

I can say that I can argue endlessy with Aeson about the most irrelevant detail, I can say that I can argue with vondrack about the mechanics, or with Krill about the merits of such a thing, but in the end, I think that all the things we learned in this endeavour more than make up for all the crap we've thrown against each other.

Seriously, we were all n00bs when this game began. We had no clue on how to deal with others, we had no clue on how we were to proceed, we took risks, some teams sadly failed because of those risks, others were more lucky, but they were risks all the same.

I am very saddened to hear that guys like vondrack or Aeson say that they won't be playing another demogame because of the things that happen here. Gimme a break, what happens in this demogame STAYS in this demogame. Every new DG is a new story, with opportunities to make up for all the ambiguities and loose rules which goverened this experiement.

I for one would be honored to play with the likes of vondrack, or Aeson, or Krill, or DeepO again. Even if they were my rivals. Even if they were my allies. Even if they were my teammates. Who friggin cares. We're all apolytonians and we have TONS of crap to learn from each other. Why malign each other with the stuff we disagree with and instead why not exhalt the virtues of that which we agree with?

I can think of many things we can agree with:

- That this game was a definitive learning experience from the guys who beat deity with their eyes closed to those who struggle with monarch.

- That this game established many precedents which we would be wise to warn about in future games.

- That we got to know each others' style of play, each others' virtues and faults, and that there was no cheating here, only alternative pathways to victory.

- That ultimately we are part of the same community, whether we like it or not, and that we'll end up facing each other in PBEMs or in other demogames, or even more importantly, that we might actually be playing together to show the world what we Apolytonians are made of.

I might act like I get pissed when I see comments like Aeson's that he doesn't plan on playing again because of the crap that happened here, or vondrack who says the same. I am not pissed, I am saddened that the community is poised to lose such valuable players because of utter stupidities and pointless arguments.

Why don't we agree to diagree?

Why don't we just admit that despite being as cheesy as can be a victory, that it was legit?

Why don't we make it evidnet that every new demogame will take the lessons that we learned in this one so that the experience can be all the more enrichning?

And finally, why don't we make it clear that we will be far greater persons, and especially civ-players, when we meet each other again, be it on the battlefield, on the bargaining table, or in the same private forum?

Let's learn from this, let's mature, and let's take what we've learned here instead of insisting on restating the negative aspects. I for one feel that for every bad thing that has happened, a plethora of good things have occured to compensate it.

So please, be it vondrack, Aeson, DeepO, Togas, Hot_Enamel or whoever, we ALL won here no matter who triggered whatever victory. We're ALL champions and we ALL deserve a hero's applause.

[vondrack]

MZ, just to fix something that seems to have been understood different from how I meant it.

My decision to not participate in future demogames is NOT based upon what is, from time to time, happening here in the public forum or in private fora. My skin has hardened enough to bear this just fine.

My decision is based upon that I have found I do not know how to handle games of this kind. If they are taken too lightly (like PtWDG2 seemed to be taken), there is not enough interest in them for me. If they are taken competitively (as PtWDG1 was), they become more of a job than fun for a player like me.

Because I have found I am not a good team player. I can either have things mostly my way, investing insane amount of time into the game - in order to have things mostly my way and to feel I have done all I could have done (hence "more of a job than fun") or I simply not participate (almost) at all... which is what happened in the game played at MZO and after my resignation in ISDG.

I seem to have very hard time to find the proper balance between these two approaches. As I simply cannot spend that much time on a leisure activity because of my RL, I have to resort to the other option, which basically equals to not participating in games like this at all.

But rest assured this is nothing personal - it's a problem with me, not with the folks around here.

[Master Zen]

Vondrack, I honestly don't see why you consider yourself "not a good team player".

I would be the first to laud you for your leadership abilities in the ISDG. I was not part of Lego but I have said more than once that I consider you to be one of the, if not THE, most valuable single players this demogame had.

I'm sure your Lego teammates would consider even this to be a gross understatement.

[vondrack]

...at the cost of many hundred (perhaps even thousands) hours spent messing with spreadsheets, juggling with labourers, arguing my points in the private forum and chat... I hope I am an asset to a team if I take my part in it seriously. But therein lies my problem... I am taking it too seriously. The balance problem I mentioned.

Every time I felt like just forgetting of the next turn, because I was in no mood to mess with it or did not really have time to, I had that sick feeling "and what if this one turn you are going to neglect, what if this one problem you are going to not address will cost Lego the whole game? All the efforts of yours and other Legos will be wasted..." To sleep well I felt obliged to invest what I was actually not quite able to invest because of my RL concerns (but invested anyway at the expense of my RL).

Like I said, that's a problem of mine, nothing related to folks here. I hope that playing individual MP or PBEM, I can still have a lot of fun civvin' with people I like, while feeling less obliged to do this or that. After all, if it was only my time that would be wasted, I might often choose to "just play" (as in "have fun") rather than to "fulfil my duties as best as I can" (as in "have a second job"). Fortunately, I seem to be less "responsible" when it comes to me than when it comes to other people...

[zerialienguru]

Re: Congratulations are in order…

Originally posted by Theseus
(...) and you miraculously found a way to survive being neighbor to the psychos in GoW!

Some words from me to this game and his teams:
It was a really interesting game and of course a pleasure to play as the only non-Apo-team in this game. For me, it was a little bit hard couse of the language barrier but i can say that i've learn much new words here, the bigger problem is my grammatic...

To the ingame: This game startet before the first ISDG and so it was my first experience in a civ3 mp-game. The start-situation for ND was really hard, we were the team between others so it was a great game played by Borc, Darekill and Zayxus that we wasn't the first team that was killed. I startet in this game about one month before the war against Lux and this "open my eyes" for human strategies with burning cities
For me the greatest time in this game was the time after winning over Lux and the end of the war against RP and GS.
The end of the game is a logical order of the diplo contacts between GoW and us so for me, its a great game end

But, of course, i've to say to GS that in my eyes you make a really good game with your small land, beeing a powerfull military nation and from a long time THE science nation, this was a more than respectable performance

Lego did the best they can with the huge, but isolated land. I think they have the best start position for building an empire but also the badest start position for the diplo thinks in this game.

RP had a nice position for their start but for me taste (and of others ) they settled to agressive south of the jungel of NT.
Became GS as partner was a good idea but the combo of Rider and Ansar was really bad for them.

Vox earns the price for being most persistent and quick

[Tiberius]

Theseus and MZ (well said)

Many thanks to Alva who invited me to this game

Many, many apologies to Vondrack whom I invited to this game

Thanks everyone for a very enjoyable and educating experience

Apolyton spirit

CIV

[Beta]

vondrack -

MZ - - well said, even with the Absolute effect.

One of the strengths of this forum is that we are able to debate an issue to the nth degree, and yes very emotionally at time. That is because as Apolyton civers we take our fun seriously - if you know what I mean. But that ability to debate is a good thing. It makes us collectively stronger, and besides, makes for some interesting reading.

As to the next game, I can tell you that I am more than keen, as is the Vox team. You were so right when you said we were a bunch of n00bs trying to figure out how to play this thing. It would be nice to play it over with what we know now - and I am not talking about the map.

However, I expect the next big game will be a Civ4 MP game, so we will be back to n00b status for the mechanics.

(speaking of which - if, I guess I should say when, we start that next game, we should identify who were civ4 testers, and if possible, make sure that expertise is spread around.)

Anyways - great post MZ!

And von, if you want a home, Vox Von sounds good. We won't make you do spreadsheets.