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**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:12

From even earlier before the game start.

Thread "Early game rush defense."
First post 17/11/2002

Originally posted by Odin
I am quite sure that if we are stuck near any other team except the Role Players we will get rushed. How should we defend against the rush, will the Numidian Inf. be useful, how may the rush hinder fast expansion? Ideas?

Originally posted by Spiffor
If we are next to anything except roleplayers (and maybe Trip's team to some extent, which could choose another target than us), diplomacy will be the key. We have to explore the world very quickly to know other teams and forge alliances as soon as needed.
Our workers should mine 1-2 tiles next to each city so that the cost of the numidian merc. isn't too much of an issue. If we can produce Numidian mercs quickly enough, we don't have to fear rushes, and can even think of counterattacking.

Indeed, the 3 defense is an impressive bonus so early, and the enemies wouldn't risk to give us a golden age if we have the productive capabilities of making many of them.

Originally posted by redstar1
I'm not so sure we will get rushed too early. The other Human players are just as likely to be wary of us as we are of them. We certainly will have time to build a reasonable defence. Probably the most important thing we have is information. They probably won't attack unless they think they have a good chance of winning. What we have to do is make them believe that our cities are well defended, even if they aren't. Its also important that our tactics and strategies stay here and go no further

but sure we all knew that anyway

Originally posted by Spiffor
I've changed my mind. It seems obvious other teams will want to attack us first, as they'll think of us as an easy target. Barracks should be a top priority as soon as possible, and numidian mercs will be a great strategic asset. We'll have to build archers/swordsmen to counterattack, and let the world know we aren't pushovers. To stop a bloodthirsty team to attack us, we have to prune them, and to prove them we are not a punching ball.

I think we should concentrate on building only the essential buildings in the early game, and save the more useless buildings (marketplace mostly, but also library to some extent) to a later time, when we have proven to the others we're strong enough not to be messed with.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I think it is highly possible that some enemys could try an early rush, especially because we are builders ("Attack them, they must be weak !").

The most dangerous is the very beginning, because we get the numidians only with Bronze Working (which should be the first researched tech, btw) and until we research it a militaristic civ could try to flood us with warriors or archers. Very dangerous moment.

Once we have barracks (high priority buildings, if not in every cities) and mercenaries, the situation will improve. It depends very much on the terrain, too.

Originally posted by redstar1
I'm not convinced that we are going to be 'rushed'. The other players know that we are going to be building Numidian Mercs to defend ourselves and this is what will put them off. Any sort of offensive force that someone can build early on may be able to overwhelm spearmen but not Mercs. Plus it would leave themselves open to counter attack, an avenue wich we will not hasten to pursue

Originally posted by aliatar
If they get to us with 5/6 veteran warriors and we still don't have bronze, we won't be able to defend, period. What size is the map? Maybe trying not to make contact at the beginning and avoiding being detected and identified as first target makes sense. Being second target is not so much of an issue because by then we will have the numidians.

Originally posted by redstar1
I think its unlikely that they can build a Barracks and 5/6 warriors and happen to stumble across us before we have bronze working. Start a game, even on Cheftain level and a tiny map and see if you can get a force together quick enough.

The other teams are going to be as wary of us as we are of them. Most of them don't beleive that we are just going to sit back and blissfully build roads. When we do get attacked (not if) it will be tactical and well thought out. Certainly after maps have been traded and they know where our strong cities lie.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I destroyed once the indians with warriors from my first city. I didn't build my second city while they were still alive. They didn't have the time to research and build spearmen (on monarch, btw).

Edited: ...and this was on my first (and last) game that I played as a warmongerer. Believe me, if we start near the warmongerers, they will rush us.

Originally posted by Tiberius

Originally posted by aliatar
Maybe trying not to make contact at the beginning and avoiding being detected and identified as first target makes sense.

This would be normally a sound strategy, but we want to REXing, so we will meet others quickly, no doubt about it. Especially if one of the teams choose to be expansionistic. Do we know anything about this?

Originally posted by redstar1
Fair enough, congratulations are in order

ITs something I've never done or seen happen but I would think its a likely occurance.

I'm still not convinced about an immediate threat though but I agree that we should prepare for eearly conflict. Certainly theres going to be no harm in having a few handy units going spare.

Originally posted by Odin
What I'm worried about is an archer rush before we get enough Numidian Mercs.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I am probably stating the obvious but cities on hills will help as long as we aren't cutting ourselves short on good terrain and resources.

Might be an idea to build walls in key strategic cities (and near the warmonger civs) as long as those cities aren't on rivers or near fresh lakes..

Yeah, I know walls are unfortunately near useless in Civ 3, but they might stop even an immortal rush, especially if we are playing as Carthage.

Originally posted by Tiberius

Odin you're right. I've realized only now

that militaristic civs start with the warrior code, thus archers.

I must apologize, I exxagerated my performance earlier. I was playing with the Chinese, I was militaristic so I had Warrior Code. It was an "archer rush" not a "warrior rush". Sorry. (It was some time ago and since I'm not doing this normally, I didn't remember it exactly)

Anyway, even if we won't be rushed, it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Originally posted by ZargonX
I think that unless we literally start on top of one of the war-monger civs (like within 15-20 squares, which can happen) we should be able to get Mercs before they can mount a full-on rush. However, if we do start right on top of one another, we're going to have to come up with some quick defensive strategies.

Originally posted by Spiffor
In the SP DemoGame, we needed about 60 turns before our archers marched on Washington. The other teams will want to attack either with more units (letting us more time to prepare numidians), or less units (giving us a chance to win with our warriors).
Don't forget they have to discover us to attack. If we use most of our warriors to defend our cities rather than scouting, they are less likely to stumble on one, and guess where we come from. It'll also buy us time if we can't produce enough Numidians.

Originally posted by lmtoops
We definitely must be of the mind set that a rush will happen. Everything we can do to prepare an impressive defense and counter-stirke ability will serve our immediate needs and will send a long term message.

If a rush does not happen....we will still be in good shape.

1. Get numidians ASAP
2. Limit our scouting...nothing worse than being attached when my warrior/scout can only watch.
3. Use terrain to our advantage, where feasible. Build on a hill surrounded be grasslands.
4. Build barrack before numidians.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I've just seen the GS's member list: Theseus, Arrian, dominae, ... If they start near us they will rush us, I guarantee.

I'll quote Theseus from an older thread about rush:

And the second best way... destroy them before they have the capability to attack you.
I just did that to Rome, in a similar situation. Made them respawn in a vast jungle

My friend, you need... the Warrior Rush.
Just trim Hammie a little bit, here and there, and your problems will be over. I wouldn;t even go after towns; just get a couple of Warrior pairs nearby VERY early, and watch for Settler-Warrior pairs.

Gotta get to them first... at all costs. If playing Egypt, for instance, with cultural linking on, I'll not build any twons beyond Thebes, and just go all Warrior, all the time, until I know I've got Caesar in hand.

If nearby, Romans, Persians, and Iroquois need to be trimmed

Originally posted by vondrack
I tend to agree with that we will be rushed if starting close to a warmongerish tribe (if for nothing else then just to be shown that rushing works...).

However, attackers will be risking a lot. If we defend ourselves successfully, they will become very vulnerable and I am sure they will realize that. Thinking of the warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, merc build order we have unofficially agreed on, I would send the first warrior straight away, trying to find/contact other civs, kept the second one circling around the capital, mapping the vicinity of our first city, looking for suitable places to expand to, and fortified the last one inside the capital. This way, we should always have at least two warriors ready for defense. That should be enough to stop a single archer trying to harass us. We would have to be seriously unlucky to get attacked by more than one or two archers before we get to BW and mercs. If there is an enemy unit approaching, we might build one more warrior, sending it to search for where the invader came from. Just pushing our lone warrior around their capital should make them think more of defense and less of rushing.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Yeah, I think it's a sound plan. Anyway, we will know more about this after the early turns. Let wait for now and see who our neighbors will be and then act accordingly.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Actually, I think a good defense against a rush is to not be found too early; thus, I think we should devote our first warrior to mapping a ring around our capital (to search for city sites) and send the second one out searching wider.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Kloreep
Actually, I think a good defense against a rush is to not be found too early; thus, I think we should devote our first warrior to mapping a ring around our capital (to search for city sites) and send the second one out searching wider.

You do have a point. However, applied upside down, the best way to keep someone at bay is to find him first - the very moment your rival realizes you know where to strike at, he must strenghten his defenses. Circling around the capital, we give up on the possibility of locating someone else and accept the fact that WE will be found out.

As far as looking for city sites goes, there will be plenty of time - while building the third warrior and then the settler, the second warrior will have time enough to find a good spot.

Also, actually making a contact with another civ or two may result in learning a new technology that will make our building options after the settler (and possibly the merc) richer. By sticking to Legopolis, we would be passively waiting for others to come to us.

Another thought: the farther away our first warrior gets, the better - during the initial period of the game, most of the territory will be neutral, thus easily tresspassable. With territorial borders expanding, we may later have troubles establishing contacts with faraway civs.

OTOH, if someone else gets to our capital until the second warrior is built, then we are toast (applies vice versa, too - if we get lucky and find someone else's capital early enough, we can either toast him or make sure that they do keep in mind we let them stay in the game). Actually, will respawning be on? Can a human team respawn?

I am not pushing this, just putting thoughts together... feel free to argue, I hope nobody will take discussions here personally.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Good arguments. You've convinced me. Not having a capital defense is bad, but it would probably be just as bad with the warrior circling around it.

It's a risk we'll have to take.

Originally posted by lmtoops
Another thing to consider for later turns is that the Numidian Mercs are good offensive units. I've trying some early game tactics and the Mercs are doing great until Pikemen and Knights.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Yeah, 2 attack will be nice in some situations. Though if it's a large attack, I'd rather have archers guarded by a few Mercs.

Originally posted by Tiberius

Originally posted by Kloreep
Though if it's a large attack, I'd rather have archers guarded by a few Mercs.

I wanted to say the same thing. Num.merc. have the same attack as archers but are much more expensive. So an attack force should be formed of a few Merc. (for defense and eventually a last push in attack) plus archers as the basic attack force.

Originally posted by vondrack
I agree that Mercs should be used offensively only when really necessary (finishing badly wounded enemy units, for last ditch fighting and such). Let's use them defensively whenever possible. Their defense of three is at least 3.3 anywhere and rises even higher when fortified and/or stationed on a well-defendable terrain. Having the (relatively) cheap archers carry attacks and protecting the victorious survivors with full-health mercs sounds like a very good idea.

But it certainly does not hurt that the Mercs can attack just as well as archers.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Kloreep
Not having a capital defense is bad, but it would probably be just as bad with the warrior circling around it.

It's a risk we'll have to take.

Boldface added.

I would not be able to put it better. That's exactly how I feel about it... sending the first warrior straight away is nothing that would conform to "playing it safe", which is what I usually go for (and, to be honest, I seldom do that in my SP games). But I fear it will be necessary to remain competitive.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:21

Still in the pre-start era, so the thread posted in my initial thread-starting post will be a little out of order. Oh well.

I found this one interesting because of discussion of the potential of an isolated start.

Poll thread "Should Bronze Working be the first tech we try to discover?"
First post 29/11/2002
11 voters
Options:
YES (11 votes)
NO (0 votes)

Originally posted by Spiffor
OK people, here's the official poll regarding Bronze Working.

Question is :
Should Bronze Working be the first tech we discover ?

Answers :
YES
NO

The poll will officially close in 3 days, but will apply as soon as the game starts.

Originally posted by Spiffor
I doubt there will be any NO, but it's very possible that some people disagree with the general consens about BW. It's the place to do it.

Originally posted by Tiberius

Originally posted by Spiffor
Should Bronze Working be the first tech we discover ?

Absolutely.

We need the Mercenaries to defend ourselves and if we're lucky and find a good spot, the Colossus is a nice early wonder.

Originally posted by vondrack
I am all for BW, we urgently need a strong defense against rushes of any kind.

BTW, who is the fourth voter? I mean, Spiffor obviously voted, Tiberius, then me... whose the fourth vote is? Imtoops'? I can see him online...

I know it doesn't matter, but I would like to know who is active and who is not...

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
In my own personal games using Carthage, I don't necessarily go straight for Bronze Working as it can take quite a bit longer to research than some others. However, in a game like this against such obviously excellent and aggressive opponents, I think there can be no doubt that we'll go straight for BW --and they (our opponents) know that's exactly what we'll do.

Originally posted by Kloreep

Originally posted by vondrack
I am all for BW, we urgently need a strong defense against rushes of any kind.

BTW, who is the fourth voter? I mean, Spiffor obviously voted, Tiberius, then me... whose the fourth vote is? Imtoops'? I can see him online...

I know it doesn't matter, but I would like to know who is active and who is not...

You really want every voter to post? Okay; I won't turn down the PC.

BW should definitly be our first tech. Simply having it is a good defense against warmongers, and once we actually have a few Mercs, they'll think twice, and thrice about attacking us.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Yes, bronze working should be first - even if we are on an island we won't be able to tell that for a while (unless it is really really small !).

Originally posted by vondrack
Wow, seems like we should really work on the Constitution clauses regarding tied votes and such...

Originally posted by Tiberius
Why should we go for pottery (after BW), wouldn't it be better to build the Pyramids?

Originally posted by Kloreep

Originally posted by Tiberius
Why should we go for pottery (after BW), wouldn't it be better to build the Pyramids?

If we are on an isolated island, chances are it will be smallish. In such circumstances, building individual granaries might be more cost-effective. Besides, someone might build them before us; and if they do, we had better have Literature to switch to the GL, and we don't know if we will.

Originally posted by Tiberius
That's true. Well, let's see first our surroundings. By the time we will discover BW, we will know more.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I suspect that Pyramids will be an early target wonder for most civs (probably second in preference to the Great Library with perhaps Hanging Gardens and Colossus close behind).

Originally posted by Odin
What was I thinking, DOH!!!

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, I'm back from my holiday-induced internet exile! So, yes, I'm all for BW first. This has been discussed much before, and I'm glad to see we're all in agreement.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:27

Still pre-start era, I believe. (I'm certain Tiberius' "so we have built our first settler" comment is hypothetical.)

Another one belittling food.

(Wheat plains are for production? Gah!)

Thread "2nd City: what if..."
First post 26/11/2002

Originally posted by Tiberius
So we have built our first settler and looking for a good spot for our 2nd city. Now: what if we have several good, but different spots for it? Some examples:
1. A settler farm, a city surrounded with fllodplains and wheat, but little production?
2. A production city, with several hills but moderate growing possibilities
3. A city in the middle of a jungle or surrounded by mountains, that has 3 nearby luxuries (of the same kind) ?
4. A coastal city with fish and possibilities to build the Collosus and the Great Lighthouse? We don't know yet, but maybe we are stucked on a small continent with the warmongerers...

... and so on.

Of course, maybe there will be only one good and obvious spot, or none at all, but theoretically, what should we choose?

Originally posted by Kloreep
I'd say an early-game production center (by early game, I mean bonus grassland, plains w/ wheat, etc.) would have to take priority, so that we could pump out some units to defend against a rush.

After that (or if there isn't a production center available) we definitely would need a settler farm.

Originally posted by Spiffor
I agree with Kloreep

Originally posted by ZargonX
I also agree with the production center plan. Though, at some point early on, we should make sure to get a port city if we don't have one yet.

Originally posted by vondrack
I am inclined to agree with Kloreep and Spiffor. An early rush is what I will fear most, so quickly pumping some defenders should be a priority.

Originally posted by Odin
Settler farm if no warmongers nearby; Production center if near warmangers, especially G of W.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Odin: sounds good.

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think every Civ will be a warmongering one if they see our 2nd city being a settler farm

Originally posted by Odin

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think every Civ will be a warmongering one if they see our 2nd city being a settler farm

Gulp!

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:37

This thread took place right during startup, at the same time as the cattle thread.

Thread "Discussion : Monarchy or Republic ?"
First post 3/12/2002

Originally posted by Spiffor
OK, should this poll pass, we will beeline to a government tech. Kloreep's note: link originally went to a poll on beelining to a government tech The previous debate was very abstract because we didn't know our starting position at that time. K's note: originally went to an even earlier tech debate
Now that we know our starting position, what we should do should be much clearer.

Here's a comparison between the 2 techs :

Code:


Monarchy Republic
Required Techs
Ceremonial Burial
Warrior Code
Mysticism
Polytheism
Monarchy
Total 5 techs, including 2 very early techs
Alphabet (free)
Writing
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Republic
Total 4 Techs, but no very early ones

Max happiness without lux.
7 people with Temple
No War weariness
4 people with Temple
Low war weariness

Bonuses / maluses
No production malus
Corruption : Problematic
No production malus
Commercial Bonus
Corruption : nuisance

Military upkeep
2 free units per town

4 free units per city

1 gold per unit otherwise
No free unit
1 gold per unit

Rushing buildings
Pay for rush
Pay for rush

Here's a pic of our starting position :
K's note: image no longer around

Originally posted by Spiffor
My opinion :
I don't know. In abstraction, I was in favor of monarchy, because it would allow us to wage war in a more efficient way (and we'll wage war, it's a sure thing), but we might want to milk all that we can from our tiles, i.e go to Republic (+commerce = better productivity per tile). Since jungle and desert are nearby, it is very possible that we have enough luxuries to afford Republic. Moreover, it is possible the others are less inclined to rush than we thought, since they now understood the other teams aren't the AI.

However, monarchy will fight discontentment on a sure basis (3 more content citizens per city), and will allow us to wage war as we need to. Plus, warrior code is on the path to monarchy, and having it early can help to discourage / get revenge of an archer rush by the GoW.
So it may be too early to decide on this, but I think we should really start the discussion on the issue : if we are too slow, we won't have the decision handy when we'll have to decide.

Originally posted by redstar1
I think once we have Bronze Working we should head for Monarchy. We are gonna need the boost to science and trade that brings, as well as the flexibility it has over republic for war and happiness.

Originally posted by Tiberius
The difficulty of the game is Regent, so we won't have serious happiness problems, unless we won't find any luxuries.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Regent definitely tips the balance in favor of Republic, IMO. But if we're next to GoW (or GS) - heck, if we're smack next to anyone except the RPers - we'll need Warrior Code ASAP.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Until we know that we are relatively safe, I would suggest going for monarchy instead of republic.

We will need the Ceremonial Burial tech early anyway and the Warrior Code tech would be useful if we do run into any hostile nations.

However, writing might also be needed early on to make treaties with any civ that we encounter. As well, we will need several techs like Iron Working and The Wheel early on to discover where the Iron and Horse resources will be. Pottery or Masonry might also be useful early on.

The path to Monarchy would give us archers and temples, while the path to Republic would give us the right to make treaties through writing only. (Although we would also be close to getting literature for the library as well.)

If we do find that we are alone (which I doubt), republic would be much more useful to us than monarchy.

It might be an idea to create a list of the beaker values needed for all of the ancient techs to aid our decision making on this (and the beeline government thread decision as well).

Originally posted by lmtoops
I had not thought of it being Regent level. That definitely sways the thinking towards Republic. I'm still wary because I have had minimal success going straight to Republic.

I'm not ready to decided. We can target our first few techs and then decide on the what govt. to target. There will be alot more information to base a decision on.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I think the next tech should be Ceremonial Burial, regardless of what are we going to choose, Monarchy or Republic. We need early temples for happiness and culture. By the time we'll discover CB we'll know much more about the surroundings, neighbors, etc, and will be able to make a wiser decision. In order to decide this issue we need more information. Let's wait and see.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Btw, how come that we can post attachments? Was this problem solved?

Originally posted by Spiffor
No, I didn't post attachments, I posted a link using the [img] feature

Originally posted by Tiberius
Right-click - properties - voilà !

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:51

Here it is, our 4000 BC thread.

Thread "Starting Position"

First, here's the shot of our starting position that was originally posted in this thread (I can't believe I still have it after three years

)

Attached Files

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 03:51

Thread "Starting Position" continued
First post 1/12/2002

Originally posted by Kloreep
THE SCREENSHOTS THAT WERE HERE ARE OUTDATED. VONDRACK'S EXCELLENT POST IN THE Chronicle of Legoland THREAD HAS ALL THE INFORMATION THAT WAS HERE PLUS MORE. GO THERE!
K's note: I do not remember if there was any text I deleted or if it was just the screenshot. Regardless, I seem to have taken a wrecking ball to this first post of the thread.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Not bad. I hope there's not too much jungle there, but not bad.

Originally posted by Tiberius
So this is it? I understand that there have been played several turns. Who played it, anyway, and how many turns? I'd like to see the most recent screenshot, if possible.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Only one turn has been played thus far. It was played by Vondrack on behalf of our team.

Originally posted by lmtoops
My internet connection failed sometime between 7 and 7:30 EST (I think). I left the computer to do more laundry and watch a bit of Amer. football; when I returned poof! it was gone.

It was back up a few hours later; no problems. But I missed the fun after hours of waiting.

Thank you Vondrack for playing and Kloreep for posting the screen shot.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I see. So, can somebody (Vondrack?) post a screenshot after the city was built and the worker moved?

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I didn't want to open a new thread for this idea in case people thought it was a bad idea, but can someone (probably the Prez) open a thread entitle something like, "Game Status Update". From there we could get screenshots and a synopsis of what went on in the turn(s): what we did, what we produced, who we talked to/made contact with, etc.

Then, with that thread being referenced, we can decide in other threads what to do.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I didn't want to open a new thread for this idea in case people thought it was a bad idea, but can someone (probably the Prez) open a thread entitle something like, "Game Status Update". From there we could get screenshots and a synopsis of what went on in the turn(s): what we did, what we produced, who we talked to/made contact with, etc.

Then, with that thread being referenced, we can decide in other threads what to do.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Yes, a good idea. I plan to take care of that either later today or tomorrow. I will probably name it something like "Chronicles of Legoland" and will post everything relevant there, including screenshots. Just give me one or two days, ok? I still have some life beyond 'Poly...

Originally posted by Kloreep
I was supposed to post an updated screen Vondrack was sending me, but my main account is down, and I'm afraid it hasn't shown up in my secondary account yet.

Vondrack, you can try sending to my main e-mail: address removed; I'll see if I can access it an another machine. But if you have your own webspace and want to put it up with your main report, that's okay too.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Vondrack's screens arrived in my secondary account.

I've edited the first post.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Would it be possible to have a complete screen of Legopolis, i.e with all produced shields / food / commerce ?
Thx in advance

BTW, how come we produce 4 shields already ?

Originally posted by Spiffor
Here are some thoughts about our starting pos :

We are in the "savannah" area of the map : just between the equatorial jungle and the tropical desert. It is a narrow line on the East West basis. It means our capital has a great starting pos, but we might have horrible surroundings.

North of us is the desert. It is great for later reources and for luxuries, but for now it sucks, because it means less good places to settle up north.
South of us is the jungle. Our industrious trait will come in extremely handy to clear it. If we manage to have a lasting peace with our neighbours, clearing this jungle will be our major undertaking. I suggest we settle the jungle as soon as we can't settle good places.
It is however possible we find good land north of the desert (or south of the jungle). Maybe we'd want to explore that far to settle these places.

With the cattle, Legopolis will have an incredible importance compared to other cities. It can act as a faster settler farm (2 pop. every 14 turns rather than 20), worker farm, and merc farm. Other cities will pale in comparison.

My conclusion is that we scout as much as possible, because we absolutely need to find good land ASAP. We have ways to settle it rapidly, it is up to us to discover it !

Originally posted by vondrack
Good analysis on the geography and Legopolis importance, Spiffor. I agree to everything you said.

As far as the exploration is concerned, I believe that our first warrior should wander eastwards, as that direction promises the most fertile terrain. At least from what we can see right now. Besides, just moving the Warrior one tile eastwards, onto a hill, will hopefully reveal a good deal of our surroundings and we will be able to better decide where to move him to in the next turn.

Originally posted by Spiffor
absolutely

Originally posted by lmtoops
Follow the river and see if there another good site.

Also, I see a second river south of town. It extends from the "Gold" mountain. I there may be a good site over there.

Spiffor....What is a "...tropical desert."?

Originally posted by Spiffor

Originally posted by lmtoops
Spiffor....What is a "...tropical desert."?

It's a desert located at the tropico, like the Sahara. Tropicos are warm, but can bet wet or arid. If wet, they'll become jungles, if arid, deserts.
It seems we have started just north of the equatorial jungle, and just south of the arid tropico, which leaves us very small round for grassland on our longitude

Originally posted by Kloreep
Excellent analysis, Spiffor.

Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, how come we produce 4 shields already ?

I assume that's because the shot is from the chat save, where AP was on. Now that it's finally off, the warrior should take 5 turns. (I don't think the mine's completion will help, as it should happen on turn 4, but I hope I'm wrong.)

Originally posted by Sharpe
Indeed , excellent analysis, Spiffor !

I think Kloreep is correct, that screenshot looks to be from the original acclerated production turn.

If what they are saying about accelerated production is correct, the cost of everything will be doubled.

That should mean that:

Warrior will be ready in 5 turns instead of 3
Growth will be in 7 or 8 turns instead of 4
Bronze Working will be available in 18 turns instead of 9

(Could someone check if I am right about these figures?)

(I don't think the mine's completion will help, as it should happen on turn 4, but I hope I'm wrong.)

Hmm, I only voted for mine then road because I thought that the mine would speed up the production of the warrior by one turn.

If not, road then mine would be the better decision (especially as road will only take 1 turn to do and mine 3 turns with our industrious trait)

Originally posted by Kloreep
Actually, a road takes two turns.

But you're right, we should run a simulation. I'll set up a scenario and test this. (Can't give you a report on anything commerce-related, as I don't have PTW and I'm not sure how much commerce we're producing in the first place.)

Originally posted by ZargonX
Looking at the extended shots, I think striking out due East with our first warrior will be our best bet. It seems to hold the best indications of clear land in that direction, though it also looks like the jungle may start to thin to the west. I think the first five or so turns of exploration will give us a good sense as to whether we are hemmed in or have some good spots for growth.

Originally posted by Tiberius
It seems to me that our river stops on the mountain south-east from Legopolis (actually it starts there

)
Eastwards there is a shielded grassland and a regular one, but no river. Maybe we should try west, though, going along the river.

However I don't think this is such a problem, because by the time our settler will be ready, we'll have 3 warriors already and a thus good knowledge of the surroundings.

Originally posted by vondrack
OK, the Chronicles of Legoland thread contains all the relevant files and screenshots for you to review. I would kindly ask everybody to go through their posts in this thread and edit/update them, so that they refer to the info found in the Chronicle thread. I guess the last thing we need is the confusion caused by outdated information being used over and over. This will be the only time to do that, as no more turns should hopefully be replayed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Kloreep, would you update the links in your first post, so that they refer to the screenshots shown in the Chronicles thread, please?

Originally posted by Kloreep
Since the Chronicle post has everything here and more, I'm just going to put a big notice at the top to go to the Chronicle thread. I'll probably just take my links down soon.

Originally posted by rendelnep
I might be too optimistic but I s there a chance that river will lead us t o flood plains?

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 04:07

Once again an out-of-chronology trip back to November 2002; I realized I forgot to include the groundbreaking treaty with Roleplay for Carthage. First of two threads.

Thread "A message from the roleplayers"
First post 14/11/2002

Originally posted by Spiffor
Here is what Godking sent me to my Inbox.

"Hi Spiffor;

As you might know, we on the RollPlay team are considering not playing carthage. We are currently voting on the issue (which is very close). Is there any interest from your team regarding this civ still? would you or another member of your team be willing to enter into some form of negotiations regarding this? As you are the only player on your team that I know, I wanted to approach you first. If you feel it appropriate, please feel free to forward this PM on. Thanks.

GodKing"

I don't really know what we can "negociate" since I don't see how a consensus might be attained, but I think we should participate anyhow. Do you have any ideas ?

Originally posted by ZargonX
Well, despite my earlier reservations, now that I've played with Carthage, I think they may suit our needs quite nicely. As you said, I don't really know how we would negotiate; I guess we would just be trying to convince them not to play it. Did the results of the RPS ever get released? If they did, I would think that would solve the matter. But, I guess it can't hurt to talk to them about it. Maybe we should wait and see how their vote goes?

Originally posted by Spiffor
Jack_www let us know we have lost.

Originally posted by Jack_www
I dont know what the hell is up with the Role Players. Togas does not know what to do. I just wish they pick a civ and get over with it. Maybe they should just flip a coin or something.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Togas sent me another PM asking for ideas about their problem, and what our stance is. They had a poll to decide between Carthage and Spain, but it was a draw.I replied him we sure would like to play Carthage but we understand they picked it.
As solutions, I told him of flipping a coin, but also that they could create characters for both Civs and test what's more fun. I also suggested they have a big debate and repoll in a few days.
I'll keep you in touch if I get new PMs. If you have any other ideas, you could PM Togas or Godking (I think Godking has done this from his own initiative)

Originally posted by redstar1
Well from what I gather we lost the RPS no? In which case I don't think theres anything we can do until the RP team decide.

Being a fan of roleplay myself I'm not entirely convinced theres much material in Carthage but thats up to them. Its coming up on 2 weeks roughly before the game is due to start and I think in order to prepare we really need to know what Civ we are going to be playing before the end of the weekend.

Obviously Carthage is our first choice but thats out of our hands really unless we can persuade the RP team otherwise. Egypt was second choice for me and for the team but on reflection I'm not sure its perfect. I'm veering more towards Persia now, especially for the Immortals.

I'm going to post another poll just to see what the thoughts of the new members are as well as if our own have changed.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Here is a message I got from Togas:

"Jack,

Here's a few things that have been discussed in our thread about what to do with the Carthage dilema.

Some of my tribesmen have felt that we could "trade" favors for Carthage. I'll list of few of their more reasonable requests here:

Agree to give us two of the ancient era techs, or one of the middle ages techs after our civs meet up.

Declare war on someone we're at war with ... sort of an early game mutual defense agreement.

Agree to give us "most favored nation" trade status where you guys would sell us techs and maps at a cheaper price than other nations.

Promise not to declare war on us at any point in the game prior to 1000 AD.

What do you think? Do any of these requests sound like a reasonable trade?

But all that aside, I DO want to stress that I want to see our nations work together in the coming game. I hope that we can engage in a healthy and productive trade agreement ... research different techs and trade them, exchange maps, do RoPs, back each other in alliances, etc. I hope that this early Carthage issue doesn't affect our relations in the game and I look forward to working with you further.

--Togas"

Thus as you can see we can still play Carthage, we will just have to make a deal with them.

Originally posted by Spiffor
I agree with
- the "most favored nation"
- the non-war clause

I'd negociate on :
- giving techs. I prefer offering them very pleasing deals, but not giving them completely offhand.

I'd refuse :
- The automatic alliance clause. I'm very glad the Roleplayers want to have a good relationship with us, and we should be more willing to ally with them. BUT, we cannot commit ourselves so much before knowing what the precise situation will be.

Overall, if the Roleplayers are sincere (which will be known only once the game starts), those "concessions" they ask for is simply a good allied policy. I'd be very happy if we could have trustful allies in the game, and I assume they'd be very happy too.

Carthage is good, and we can make concessions for it. However, it's not great enough to accept blindly all the suggestions.

With my position, I assume the roleplayers will be happy to give us Carthage, because I assume they don't expect us to accept everything.

Originally posted by redstar1
I think it looks like they are sincerely willing to trade for Carthage and I think its definately worthwhile considering. I like the 'Most favoured nation' option and I certainly think we could see our way to having a special relationship with the RP team. Certainly their philosophy seems to be most similar to ours....

Originally posted by Nimitz
They seem like the only ones we may ever have long term good relationship with.

Originally posted by ZargonX
I'm ok with the "favored trade" status the non-agression agreement, but I wouldn't give them any free techs or anything right off the bat.

I mean, it's entirely possible they may decide not to go with Carthage anyway, so to ply them with massive bribes for something we could get anyway by default isn't a good plan.

But, overall, I do favor developing a strong relationship with them.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 04:11

Poll thread "What the Role Players want for Carthage."
First post 16/11/2002
11 voters
Options:
Yes (10 votes)
No (1 vote)

Originally posted by Jack_www
Here is anther Message from Togas, this is the deal they want to make with us for Carthage. So I thougth I would put it to a vote and see if you guys approve of the deal or not. If you say no please say why in the thread. If the deal is turn down then we can redo the parts you guys dont like.

"How about this:

We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading).

In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above.

Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations.

We also suggest that this agreement be kept in private between our two teams. If the other teams learned of this cooperation, two warmongering teams could join together which would be horribly dangerous for both of us.

If you agree, let me know, and we will officially announce that we have given your team Carthage.

--Togas"

Originally posted by Spiffor
Agreed, this is an excellent deal

Basically, we're pledging having a good cooperation with the Roleplayers, which is as good for us as for them. The really problematic clauses (forced alliances and free techsgiving) have been removed from the drafts, and what they ask are barely "concessions", but rather rules of good behavior between neighbours

I don't know if the roleplayers are to be trusted at all times, but they seem to have good intentions, and to seek some safety against the war-fest which is preparing. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose by accepting such terms

Originally posted by redstar1
Agreed, especially about keeping it quiet....

I would also like to add a clause that if we are neighbours then we discuss expansion early to create a common border with no disputes. Of course this can only happen after we have each others maps.

Originally posted by Nimitz
Sounds good, if we can stay ahead in tech will have a big avantage.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Dividing up research can be a real boon early in the game for getting ahead. I was trying that in a MP game the other night, and it worked quite well. We completely outpaced the AI in no time.

Plus, it will be good to have at least 1 trusted ally in the game. I think this should work out well for both of our teams.

Originally posted by redstar1
Do we have a common contact in the RP team?

Originally posted by Jack_www
Yes we do, Since we have 5 votes the deal has passed since we only have 8 people in the team. I will tell Togas we accepted the deal. Remember dont tell anyone about the deal. So it looks like that we will get Carthage after all.

Originally posted by redstar1
Who voted no? I'd like to know the reasons why.... not getting at anyone but I think its important if someone is not happy with something that they should post and let us know. We want to make decisions we can all agree on and so noone gets alienated or feels left out.

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I voted Yes, of course, but I have one question. What's gives the Role-Playing team the position to declare we have to agree to this deal, otherwise they're taking Carthage? Who determined the got first dibs on Carthage?

Just wondering.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Well both the roleplayers and us pick Carthage. We did rock paper scissors with judges to see who would get Carthage, and the roleplayers won it. Then they started to change their mind about what civ they wanted, and asked us to make a deal with them for it, since have the team was willing to give it away for free and the other half wanted to make a deal to give it to us.

Originally posted by Tiberius
The treaty looks good, but we promised that "In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD" while they didn't. I don't like that.

Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations.

This is good in the beginning, as a general outline of our intentions. Later we should sign a Mutual Non-Agression Pact with them (for x turns andautomatically extend it) and, if relations are going very well, a MPP.

The negotiations must not stop here!

Originally posted by Spiffor
Tiberius:
You're right they didn't promise any non agression, so we'll have to be wary of them as much as we're wary of the others, except if our relationship becomes excellent during the game.
But we must understand peace with us is in their best interests : because of their roleplay, they are deemed a "weak" Civ by other teams, and might be attacked pretty early because of this, just like we do.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Yes, I think we definately need to get our amabassadors assigned quickly so we can continue negotiations on an official basis. If anyone wants to be assigned to a specific team, make sure to voice that desire in the "Official Nominations" thread.

Originally posted by Kloreep
These terms would be acceptable, so I vote yes. But I think we should first see if they'd be willing to make the "no war before 1000 AD" clause mutual.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Just so all the new people know, the orginal agreement that the role players wanted was a mmp between the both of us, but alot of people did not like having an mmp so early in the game, so we decided to ask them to take it out and they did.

Originally posted by Tiberius
You mean a MPP (mutual protection pact?). I'm glad we didn't take it, but we should have signed a mutual non-aggresion pact, IMHO.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 04:12

Our first "contact" with ND.

Thread "Foreign Affairs --Diplomatic with other Civs
First post 06/12/2002

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I have contacted the Demogyptica team. They have rebuffed our diplomatic overatures stating contact is not necessary until we have made contact in the game.

From Borc, Govenor of Demogyptica:

Borc
06-12-2002 12:27

To all the ambassadors of the other teams...!

it is great to see you here and its nice to meet you.. but actually we dont have ambassadors at the moment and i also think it is a bit early let us wait some hundred years until we all are more than a group of apes without any history

So, there you have it.

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
Sorry, goofed up the thread title. It was supposed to read, "Diplomacy" instead of "Diplomatic".

Originally posted by Jack_www
oh well. I mean that they could have at least say hi to you. We just want to let all the teams know that we have abassadors and if they need to talk, they know who to contact.

Originally posted by vondrack
Well, I kinda like these ND guys.

Others are all talk, but these are straightforward and honest.

Good job, Colonel. Seems like you won't be too busy in the next few hundred years.

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken

Originally posted by vondrack
Good job, Colonel. Seems like you won't be too busy in the next few hundred years.

Thanks.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 16:40

Here's a good thread for you, Don.

And anyone interested in what Lego thought of you at the start of the game. It somewhat tails off in to a discussion of our GA, but there's some great stuff at the beginning even if you aren't interested in our internal-oriented discussions.

Thread "Foreign Affairs Strategy"
First post 29/11/2002

Originally posted by Kloreep
I have two objectives in starting this thread: 1) to try to get into the workings of MP diplomacy (something with which I have no experience) and how the PTW Demogame will have quirks of its own, and 2) to set up some basic reactions toward teams, so that if we find a team to be our neighbor, we already know how we'd prefer to act.

MP diplomacy I have little insight into. It's obviously going to be quite different, but that's not very helpful.

Anyone who's actually played some Civ3 MP want to comment?

Here are some basic opinions about dealing with other teams. Note that these are all early game reactions (IE, if they're right next to us).

Lux Invicta: Seem to be warmongering advocates, but hard to pin down exactly where they are on the builder-warmonger spectrum. Treat with caution.

Gathering Storm: I don't trust this rush-advocating team farther than I can throw 'em. However, I don't think much else can be said before the game begins; I don't have a good handle on their leanings (and I doubt even they will, till they see the map).

RP Team: A friend in a warmongering world, and one we've promised not to attack till 1000 AD. Live in peace with them, and establish a trade connection ASAP to exchange luxes.

Glory of War: If we start next to them, I say RUSH RUSH RUSH in the ancient age! I don't trust them at all, and they've basically stated they'll be hitting their neighbors up for money. Strike while we have our UU and theirs is yet to come!

Vox Controlli: Don't really know what these guys are about (except for the "one voice" thing

), but a lot of their discussion up till now has been public (they only got their forum recently). Does anyone who bothered to read their threads wish to comment?

Demogyptica: Don't know much about these guys. Another team to treat with caution.

Originally posted by redstar1
I agree with most of what you say and would just like to reiterate that we should view all other Civs with extreme caution. The Glory of War team is probably the one team we can identify as a definate threat but I don't advocate attacking them because of who they are. I think we should reserve entering into a war willingly until we are sure of our position and we have clear and consice set of objectives. I don't think theres much point in raiding the GOW empire, or any other one early on just because we have Numidian Mercs. We should use the Mercs, and the other civ's knowledge that we have them as a deterrent.

Of course if, in the interest of expansion and continued survival we are forced to enter into hostilities with another soverign nation .... I say kill

Originally posted by Sharpe
The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)

Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious

Lux Invicta - Hard to say what strategy they will use - those traits can be used by warmongers to maintain a more balanced approach while concentrating on a military buildup though. They will be a real problem in the late middle ages due to their strong unique unit.
However, if they build up early until the late middle ages, they could rival us in building due to their traits.

Gathering Storm - They have a LOT of Civ 3 experienced players and clearly favor early rushing - and Egypt is perfect for that. Should be wary of them, however, they might be willing to ally with us if we meet them after we have our unique units in place.

Role-Playing - Seem friendly; however, if they are truly role-playing they will be militaristic (can't have much of a story with interesting events and characters if all they are doing is building city improvements and using workers

)

Glory of War - Clearly aggressive, but by choosing China instead of a great early rusher like the Aztecs or Iroquois, they may be mindful of the need for other tactics if war fails. Do appear to be trying to bribe others, but we might be able to use that to our advantage.

Vox Controli - Will have to be aggressive early if they use Persia due to the usefulness of those Immortals. Treaties might be useless if they do go ahead with a one voice, no advisers dictatorship as style of play might vary greatly (like in succession games) depending on how often they change leaders.

Demogyptica - Another hard to figure out civ - they chose Egypt in their SP Democratic game (but then again so did we), which might indicate early rushing tactics. However, their choice of Arabia this time might indicate a desire to gain an early advantage in exploring the map. Only Gathering Storm will uncover the map nearly as fast as them. Being a non-Apolyton team, they might use that early advantage to be a map and contact broker and to try to form friendships with some of us. However, their religious trait and cheap unique unit will give them some flexibility in their tactics too.

My suggestion is that we might be best to adapt the tactics of England in the 1700 to 1800's by forming coalitions.

While we are working on developing our infrastructure - build a decent military (mostly defensive and speedy counter attack units) we should try to form friendly coalitions. I suspect that if an early rush attack is made that there might be early coalitions formed against it (if the defending civ isn't immediately overwhelmed of course), especially due to our relative inexperience with Civ 3 MP tactics. It is possible that we may end up with a 4 vs 3 civs coalition situation that frequently occured in those "Diplomatic" games from Civ 2.

With our emphasis on building, if we are not disturbed too much, we should be able to gain some advantages in city size, shield and commerce production and might be able to use money and trade goods as subsidies to our coalition partners.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Feel free to ignore or criticize.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Don't apologize for your long post, Sharpe. It was good.

I agree with everything that has been said, except comments on GoW. I've seen at least one post from a member of theirs that mentions bribing GoW simply to stay away; in other words, tribute.

If they accept us as an equal neighbor, fine. But I currently doubt they will. And if they want to take the fruits of our labor simply by virtue of their stated philosophy, I say we should show them we can play their game just as easily as ours.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Sharpe
The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)

Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious

Nice post, Sharpe.

I will add one more table, showing what techs other teams start with:
Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Bronze Working & Masonry
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Ceremonial Burial & Masonry
Role-Playing - Spain - Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial
Glory of War - China - Warrior Code & Masonry
Vox Controli - Bronze Working & Masonry
Demogyptica - Arabs - Pottery & Ceremonial Burial
we, Legoland - Cartaghe - Alphabet & Masonry

Sorted from least to most common (beaker costs in brackets):

1:
Warrior Code - Glory of War (30)
Pottery - Demogyptica (20)

2:
Alphabet - us, Role-players (50)
Bronze Working - Lux Invicta, Vox Controli (30)

3:
Ceremonial Burial - Gathering Storm, Role-Players, Demogyptica (20)

5:
Masonry - everybody, but Spain & Demogyptica (40)

Alphabet is a very valuable starting tech and will be - hopefully - in high demand, as it is on the road to the Great Library. But we should not hesitate to trade it for other techs, as it does not give any immediate military advantage and we are not the only ones to have it. The sooner we sell it to someone else, the better. OTOH, we can hardly hope for trading Masonry, as almost everybody has it...

Let's see:

1) Archer rush against us is possible/likely only if we start next to GoW only. Nobody else will be able to churn out archers much earlier than we start cranking Mercs. I assume that GoW will be unlikely to trade their Warrior Code early on, as it gives them an obvious edge over other teams.

2) Should we start next to Lux Invicta or Vox Controli, I suggest offering Masonry for the rest of unresearched Bronze Working, should they be willing to trade (maybe even throwing some moderate cash in). Masonry will be next to useless trade-wise very soon, which should be just enough to justify exchanging it for a partially researched tech. The sooner we get to BW, the better. Masonry would be an acceptable price for getting to Mercs few turns sooner.

3) Should we start next to Gathering Storm, I would lean toward offering them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial plus loads of cash (dunno, how much exactly... at least 20-30 gold?), should they be willing to accept it. This may seem a bit foolish, but consider this: Roleplayers have been granted a preferred trading partner status, which means that we may have to trade Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial anyway... offering a fine deal to GoS may start a friendly relationship with them. If there is nothing they can extort us for, they may be more likely to pick a different target.

4) Role-Players. There is not much to consider here. We would be sort of bound to sell them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial, hopefully making some cash, too. I would rather not meet them too early... Trading Alphabet for CB will hardly bring any relationship improvement... we would be better off trading it to GS.

5) Glory of War. Umm, this would be tough... Warrior Code is their starting exclusive, which gives them an edge. I would probably try offering Alphabet for Warrior Code. It would be such a lopsided deal (a 50-beaker tech for a 20-beaker tech) that they may even agree... the closer we will be to Bronze Working, the more likely they might be to trade (Archers would suck against Mercs anyway). I would even be willing to promise not to trade Warrior Code for a set period of time (like 10, 15, or 20 turns) to anyone else to make this deal. If they agree on such a deal, I suggest we take it - in case of a rush from another team, we would be able to counter-attack with cheap archers, saving our costly Mercs for rock-solid defense...

GoW is the only team posing a real early-game threat to us. Anything that will keep them at bay will be fine, IMHO.

6) Should we start next to Neu Demogyptica, I would suggest trading both of our techs for both of theirs ASAP. Considering the nominal research cost, we would be giving them a bit more, but Masonry will be very easy to get from other teams, while Pottery is their starting exclusive.

OK, that's just about all I can think of right now (you can consider that my campaign speech

for the post of Foreign Minister).

Originally posted by vondrack
I find it a bit worrying that nobody feels like commenting my trading strategy post... I must have posted either some real crap nobody cares to discuss, or stated just very obvious things, or... does anybody care at all?

Originally posted by Odin
Looks good Vondrack.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Yes Radek, don't worry, it is looking good.
Good analysis (and Sharpe's too).

Originally posted by lmtoops
Good analysis! I like the way your thinking.

I like the idea of agressively looking for deals. We need to get the best deals for Alphabet before RP beats us to it.

Has it been decided what methods of communication (to other civs) are legal? Can we begin contacting other civs today, or just within the game?

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
Wow, you guys are deep!

I almost feel inclined just to sit back and watch and learn.

Originally posted by Kloreep

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
Wow, you guys are deep!

I almost feel inclined just to sit back and watch and learn.

Learning from other players is one reason I like demogames so much.

(I know there's a strategy forum, but it just doesn't hold my attention. I need examples.

)

Originally posted by vondrack
OK, I know I am kind of threadjacking this thread, but it seems to be a great place to start working on my foreign affairs agenda. As the provisional Foreign Minister of Legoland, I would like my ambassadors to report whether they contacted their partners in other teams and whether anything important has been arranged. I noticed some of them did so, but I have no easy to way to find out who contacted whom.

As there was no general consent regarding the rules for making diplomatic PMs semi-public, allowing for posting their content in the private team forums, I would kindly ask all our ambassadors to speak to their counterparts, possibly arranging for lifting the restriction for both parties.

Also, our ambassador to Gathering Storm (quantum_mechani? correct?) should find out if there are any more email addresses we should send our savegame to. Currently, we send it to notyoueither@hotmail.com only.

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
I have made contact with the Gathering Storm ambassador (DeepO) and according to him we are the first ambassadors to meet. I will ask him who else to send the save to.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
I have made contact with the Gathering Storm ambassador (DeepO) and according to him we are the first ambassadors to meet. I will ask him who else to send the save to.

Good! Developing friendly relations with Gathering Storm prior to other teams may help, even if only a bit (after all, they seem to really be the team with most renowned players). I have noticed DeepO too would like to lift the PM restriction. Be so kind and finalize the agreement with him.

Thanks, qm.

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
Do you mean stop using PM altogether? Or just make sure its OK to post the their content?

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
Do you mean stop using PM altogether? Or just make sure its OK to post the their content?

I meant just to make sure it's OK to post the content of diplomatic PMs to other members of the team in the private forum.

Originally posted by lmtoops
I have contacted Lux Invicta (what does this mean?). Attached is my post in their public forum. Please let me know if I left out anything. I don't think they have contacted us.
______________________________

As member of Legoland, I am pleased to announce that I an the ambassador to the Lux Invicta. I am your primary contact with the Legoland team.

I am an active member of Legoland, and that is where my allegance lies. But as ambassador to Lux Invicta, I promise to also keep in mind your needs. I fully understand that the best agreements are those that are in our mutual best interests.

My preference is that all communications are done via Apolyton PMs. All PMs that I sent are considered semi-public, in that your ambassador is free to quote any part of my PMs in your private forum. I requrest that you restrict my PMs to your private forum.

Thank you and here to the future success of both our nations,
Lmtoops

Originally posted by ZargonX
I have received my first PM from Panzer32, our GoW ambassador. He has given me permission to post content in the private forum, and I have given him the same for his forum. Rather than post the entire message, I will put up the main points in brief.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, so here is the summary of the first diplomatic communications with GoW. These are paraphrases of what Panzer32 sent to me.

-The GoW is willing to work with us, for a price. They think that as builders, we will need a strong military ally. they have several services to offer:

-Mercenaries for Hire. If we wish to fight a war, but don't feel like doing it ourselves, they'll do it for us. Any captured cities would be handed over to us at the conclusion. Price varies.

-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.

-They claim we can trust them in making deals, because they know that as a war-making civ, the first time they break a deal, no one will ever trust them again.

-I have permission to post the contents of his PMs unless otherwise specified.

So, there you have it. While they claim they are more than willing to sell their services to others, one has to wonder how long until they just start demanding "protection money." Plus, this makes them an even greater threat, because someone could just pay them off to go to war with us. We must definately be wary in our dealings with them, I feel.

Originally posted by Tiberius

Originally posted by lmtoops
I have contacted Lux Invicta (what does this mean?).

It is latin. AFAIK lux means light while invicta means invincible.

Originally posted by delmar
Dear Vondrack,

I am a brand new citizen of Legoland and haven't had much chance to read all the the posts in this private forum. Therefore I apologize if I missed something and the following issues were discussed already:

1.) I am wondering based on what we think we know which group uses which tribe. I am especially doubtful about Gathering Storm being Egypt.

2.) On a related note, is it a fair statement that much of our Foreign Strategy (e.g. what tech we should trade to whom) is based on what we learnt on the public forum of other teams? If it is indeed like that, I would like our Department of Foreign Affairs to consider the possibility that other teams (especially Gathering Storm) uses their public forum for desinformation.

3.) On yet another related note, I would strongly recommend that our Department of Foreign Affairs adopt this techinque and get actively involved into spreading misleading information.

4.) How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages?

5.) Before I was granted citizenship to Legoland, I was reading the public forums of the teams. My impression on the GoW team was that they started out as a real bully, but then they realized that making everybody their enemy too early is not a good strategy. Therefore I find it likely that they are sincerely looking for allies. Furthermore I do think that Legoland is a good match for GoW, in fact I would have suggested to initiate such a cooperation with GoW myself.

6.) While I certainly appreciate the opportunity, Your Highness

, that I can offer my opinion on Foreign Affairs, I would find it useful to have a thread where only You could post, so that everyone is clear on what is the official opinion of the Department of Foreign Affairs and what is just discussion among ordinary citizens. This thread, IMHO, falls into the second category.

Thanks for listening!

Delmar

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by ZargonX
-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.

I am not sure if this service is worth 1gpt. As I see it, triggering a Golden Age is not a problem for us, avoiding an early Golden Age is. If we managed to avoid an early Golden Age, then I would hope that we (being Builders) will ultimately trigger our Golden Age by building wonders.

Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located.

Also, what does "deposit of a tech or resources" exactly mean? I hope it doesn't mean "give something to us now and we might give you something later on"?

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 16:40

"Foreign Affairs Strategy" continued

Originally posted by delmar
I think it would be very important to protect our world map. I am currently in an MP game (with notyoueither, btw), and I managed to keep about half of my territory, the biggest, most productive cities around my capital, a secret so far (we are around 1100AD). notyoueither also tried to do the same, he literally kills off any galley or scout approaching his boarders. Opponents seeing a big black patch in place of your country is a huge advantage. They don't know what resources you have, can't investigate your cities, can't plan for an attack.

Therefore I would suggest three things:

1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).

2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).

3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

Delmar

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by vondrack on the Master Build Poll thread

Originally posted by delmar
maybe you should go out and play on human weakness. Maybe you could publish a newsletter that reports how many and well placed Mercs we have all over the map (slightly exegarating numbers and strategic value, of course ). That might be worth more than 3 Merc/city.

Like GoW did? Other teams would consider the info just as irrelevant as I consider GoW's fake pic. But if you feel like working on propaganda, feel free to do so. I just don't have time to.

No, like Gathering Storm did and made you believe that they are playing Egypt. Or better.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by delmar
No, like Gathering Storm did and made you believe that they are playing Egypt. Or better.

Actually, if they really chose a different civ, then I consider it not a successful propaganda, but unfair play. As nye was setting up the game, he was the only one having the chance to pick a civ without others knowing which one it was. I seriously hope they did not do it.

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by vondrack
Actually, if they really chose a different civ, then I consider it not a successful propaganda, but unfair play. As nye was setting up the game, he was the only one having the chance to pick a civ without others knowing which one it was. I seriously hope they did not do it.

In that case: "or better".

As I mentioned at the beginning, I arrived a bit late to the scene and it is very likely that I missed some important points. For that matter I didn't know that nye personally set up the game and I was convinced that not knowing who is playing which tribe is part of the game. If Gathering Storm is playing Egypt and not the Iroquois or the Vikings, then I am greatly releaved. Do you happen to have a reference where nye stated in all seriousness that they are playing Egypt? An official list of teams with tribe specified would be great.

Having said that, I do think that desinformation should be part of our foreign policy and I will be sad if our Department of Foreign Affairs won't find this idea worth to implement it.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by delmar
As I mentioned at the beginning, I arrived a bit late to the scene and it is very likely that I missed some important points. For that matter I didn't know that nye personally set up the game and I was convinced that not knowing who is playing which tribe is part of the game. If Gathering Storm is playing Egypt and not the Iroquois or the Vikings, then I am greatly releaved. Do you happen to have a reference where nye stated in all seriousness that they are playing Egypt? An official list of teams with tribe specified would be great.

It is in one of the threads in the public PtWDG forum, would have to look for the link... something like "State Your Choices".

AFAIK, every PBEM game is being set up by a single person. There is no way you could "join" a PBEM game under way. That's why there was someone setting the game up and that's why civ choices had to be made public.

Originally posted by delmar
Having said that, I do think that desinformation should be part of our foreign policy and I will be sad if our Department of Foreign Affairs won't find this idea worth to implement it.

It definitely is worth implementing, but not through the public PtWDG forum. We will implement it when the time comes, using diplomatic channels/ambassadors. Anything that is going to appear in the public forum is not going to be taken very seriously, exactly because it would be in the public forum. Making other teams ponder about whether the info we posted was true or false is just as good as leaving them ponder what the hell is going on in Legoland...

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by vondrack
AFAIK, every PBEM game is being set up by a single person.

That person doesn't need to play though. Anyway, important thing is we really know who is playing which tribe.

It definitely is worth implementing, but not through the public PtWDG forum. We will implement it when the time comes, using diplomatic channels/ambassadors.

Sounds good.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Some info :

All teams stated officially their preferences in this thread. To sum it up

Legoland = Carthage
Lux Invicta = Ottomans
Gathering Storm = Egypt
Glory of War = China
Neu Demogyptica = Arabia
Roleplay = Spain
Vox Controli = Persia
There are no AIs

This is the public and definitive choice of Civs. Any Civ not following can be considered cheating. The only way to do this would have been to have a "true" choice from the beginning, to PM NYE, and to get his agreement to change Civ without advising anyone... Very unlikely.

Obviously, other teams will use the public forum for disinformation, just as much as we'll do. The biggest example for now is the fake "one tile island" which hosts the Glory of war. Also, it is doubtful the roleplayers started near a river.

How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages?

No idea. I'd say we try to maintain peace with our neighbours : our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around, and going at war against us only to trigger our GA will be a costly strategy for anyone that attacks us. We risk being at war, but I think the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil.
We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it

Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located.

Absolutely. Anyways, we cannot give them gold per turn before we have contact with them, which can take some time.

1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).
2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).
3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

1) Sure thing
2) We shouldn't be too gung ho. We should remain prudent before declaring war. Don't forget a rival Civ would have to trade its whole map to another Civ, and not only the chunk about us. Declaring war because people are scouting by us should be a question of circumstances, not a question of principles
3) Yes, but I highly doubt we could ever get maps, except in some very special cases.

I agree we should try to have a good relationship with the GoW : an alliance between builders and warmongers can be extremely powerful. However, we should never depend on them in any ways. If they are owerwhelmingly powerful (because we relied on them to be our force), they could grab our territory in no time.

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by Spiffor
No idea.

Then here is one: don't build any. Before you ban me from Legoland forever for infinit stupidity

, let me tell you that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't build any Mercs, period. It is just an idea that could be considered, modified, constrained, etc.

And here is another one: play down the importance of a golden age. The Golden Age assurance offered by the GoW team is an excellent opportunity to do this. Maybe we should pretend we don't care when/if we have a golden age.

our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around,

You sure about this? I agree that attacking our UU is close to suicide before knights (unless someone has Immortals, of course... hmm, what was the tribe of Vox Controli again?

), but we being a threat... I don't know. What would you do if someone, whose capital is 50 tiles away, walked up to us with a conscript warrior received from a goody hut next to us and attacked one of our 3 Mercs, while we have two cities? Even if we give up our image and turn Legoland into a military organization, I wouldn't call ourselves a threat for thousands of years. Fortunately the above scenario is not very likely because (to my greatest surprise) there is only one expansionist civ among our opponents (thanks for confirming this info, btw), nonetheless it illustrates why I feel that this issue might be a bit more complicated than it sounds.

the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil

Possible, but I doubt that us being a threat plays any role in this, even if it's true.

We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it

I'll try, no promises though. Unless many other aspects of the game, I have never thought about this. Actually I did, for 5 minutes, before I posted the question here, and during those 5 minutes I reached the astonishing conclusion that the Golden Age is best when we are in a very early phase because then the boost given by the GA might get close to doubling our performance. In contrast, when everything is mined and railroaded, we are a Republic and spread out enough to suffer from significant corruption, a GA probably gives only a 10-15% boost. Wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be complete nonesense on a second look, nonetheless this argument should be useful anyway -- in worst case as a basis of desinformation.

Originally posted by delmar
A Golden Age (GA) is triggered when the UU (Numidian Mercenary in our case) is victorious in a battle, or if we build Great Wonders that match both of our civilization strengths (commercial and industrious).

Here is a list of relevant wonders, courtesy of Vondrack:

Commercial Wonders: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Voyage, Smith's Trading Company, United Nations

Industrious Wonders: Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Hoover Dam, Manhattan Project, Pyramids,

We need one from each group to trigger a GA. Or, the Internet triggers a GA for anyone who builds it and didn't have one before.

The GA lasts for 20 turns, and it means that every laborer in the city that is producing at least 1 shield and/or commerce will produce an extra shield and/or commerce.

Therefore the GA has a theoretical maximum impact in a situation where every laborer produces precisely 1 shield and 1 commerce, as in this case the GA doubles our productivity and income.

This theoretical maximum is hard to reach because a (maybe surprisingly large) number of tiles produces at least two shield and/or commerce. For example:

- mined bonus grassland
- mined cattle
- any tile with a road and next to a river
- any tile with a road and luxuries
- forrest
- hill/mountain with gold
- coast
- lake

The first three of the above list is already next to our capital and we are likely to meet the others as well. In general, the least developed these tiles are the bigger (relative) impact the GA has.

Note however that many of the above mentioned tiles produce exactly 2 shield and/or gold. This is very significant, because in Despotism, every tile that produces more than two food, shield, or commerce produces one less instead. This means that the effect of the GA is zero on tiles producing 2 shield and/or gold while we are in Despotism. It is hard to reach a final conclusion without knowing the map, but I suspect that this will be the single most important factor in deciding when we don't want a GA: while we are in Despotism.

Another interesting aspect of GA is that food production doesn't change. This means that the practical effect of a GA in the early phase, where the main objective is usually to produce settlers and workers for expansion and tile improvements (see also: jungle) is rather questionable.

Furthermore it appears to be useful to have something that we can actually build with those extra shields (gold is not likely to be a problem as we can accumulate it in our treasury). The obvious answer to this problem is to build a bunch of Numidian Mercenaries during the GA. I suspect however that this would result in an outragous waste of shields -- picture a city producing 7, 9 or God forbid 13 shields as it builds the 30 shield unit. Consequently I feel that we must ensure that we have the necessary tech for the "next generation" of city improvements that could suck up all those extra shields while producing something enduring -- Construction (Aqueduct), Currency (Marketplace), and Literature (Library) comes to mind. Scheduling a Great Wonder or two for this period would be also nice.

Finally, the shields and gold induced by the GA are not immune to corruption, therefore the relative effect of the GA decreases with the size of Legoland. Unfortunately I can't provide a formula for calculating corruption, hence the only thing I can say in this regard that it is probably not a good idea to trigger a GA just before we start to build our Forbidden Palace.

Based on the above, one possible strategy regarding triggering our Golden Age is this:

- research The Republic and Literature
- finish the first wave of colonization
- change goverment to Republic
- trigger the GA
- use the extra shields to build library in every city and start the Great Library in the best production city which is also next to sea
- research Map Making and/or Monarchy so that we can switch from the Great Library to the Great Lighthouse or the Hanging Gardens if necessary
- alternative solution for a second wonder is (if this is not against the rules) to start building a Palace in some city during the GA and then switch to the wonder when the appropriate tech is available. We might be able to get Sun Tzu's Art of War this way, even though I am not certain that we really need it.

Originally posted by delmar
Spiffor, what do we know about the map settings, barbarians and difficulty?

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by delmar
Spiffor, what do we know about the map settings, barbarians and difficulty?

Map settings mostly random (detailed info to be found somewhere in the public PtWDG forum, can't remember where exactly), barbarians roaming, difficulty Regent. No AIs.

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by vondrack
Map settings mostly random (detailed info to be found somewhere in the public PtWDG forum, can't remember where exactly), barbarians roaming, difficulty Regent. No AIs.

Thanks. Does "mostly" mean "all" in this context? Specifically, do we know the map style (Pangea, Continents, Archipelago)?

Originally posted by Spiffor
Size : standard
Landmass : random
Temperature : normal
Climate : normal
Age : random
I thought the Barbs were random, but I might have missed an element.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Welcome, delmar.

Good to see more active members joining.

Ideally, I'd say we should have our GA in the middle ages; there are a lot of great (both descriptively and literally

) wonders then, and that's when the last basic city improvements (like Cathedrals) come into play. Since we're neither scientific nor religious, we'll definitely need a GA's shield boost to match other Civ's infrastructure.

I don't think palace shieldholding is against the rules; I haven't seen anything about it, but I joined after a lot of the game's layout was already set up.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by delmar
4.) How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)?

Hardly. If someone else decides to trigger the GA for us, he probably will. The only possible countermeasure is having "police force" (archers or chariots) that will kill invaders before they get to our Mercs. As for the GA timing, I would say that the best time is early medieval, where there are lots of improvements to build, fine GWs... but we could call ourselves lucky if we are actually free to time our GA...

Just BTW... I thought I would list wonders that may trigger our GA, too. As we are commercial & industrious, the following wonders matter (we'd need one commercial and one industrious wonder):

Commercial Wonders: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Voyage, Smith's Trading Company, United Nations
Industrious: Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Hoover Dam, Manhattan Project, Pyramids,

and Internet, of course...

Originally posted by delmar
5.) Before I was granted citizenship to Legoland, I was reading the public forums of the teams. My impression on the GoW team was that they started out as a real bully, but then they realized that making everybody their enemy too early is not a good strategy. Therefore I find it likely that they are sincerely looking for allies. Furthermore I do think that Legoland is a good match for GoW, in fact I would have suggested to initiate such a cooperation with GoW myself.

In my tech-trade analysis earlier in the post, I proposed trading our Alphabet for their Warrior Code, if possible. Getting Warrior Code would help us greatly (allowing archers to be built, which could repel intruders just as well as Mercs, while being cheaper and not triggering our GA) and GoW might be happy to learn Literature (a tech that is significantly more costly to research than WC).

Originally posted by delmar
6.) While I certainly appreciate the opportunity, Your Highness

, that I can offer my opinion on Foreign Affairs, I would find it useful to have a thread where only You could post, so that everyone is clear on what is the official opinion of the Department of Foreign Affairs and what is just discussion among ordinary citizens. This thread, IMHO, falls into the second category.

Once we actually meet other civs, that may be a good idea. Currently, this thread is all we need, I believe.

Originally posted by delmar
Therefore I would suggest three things:

1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).

2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).

3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

1) is obvious, but 3) is rather unlikely, exactly because others will have the same 1) as we do. As for intrusions, I believe that we will handle it case by case through diplomatic channels, sometimes warning, sometimes threatening, sometimes negotiating free way... as we see fit.

Originally posted by ZargonX
As I stated, I wouldn't really want to embroil us with any of GoW's "deals," but that doesn't mean we can't cooperate with them otherwise. They will be wanting tech, and we can probably provide it. However, we must be wary that they just don't decide to come in and take it, as it were.

Of course, this all assumes we are anywhere near them at all...

Originally posted by delmar

Originally posted by vondrack
Hardly. If someone else decides to trigger the GA for us, he probably will. The only possible countermeasure is having "police force" (archers or chariots) that will kill invaders before they get to our Mercs.

"Only possible"? I gave two other suggestions above...

As for the GA timing, I would say that the best time is early medieval, where there are lots of improvements to build, fine GWs...

Can you be a bit more specific? I think the only improvement is the Cathedral, which I consider rather useless, and the only fine GW is Leonardo's. I find the value of the other two "Great" Wonders (Sun Tzu's and Sistine Chapel) rather questionable. Well, I see another great opportunity for a study coming up: "The importance of city improvements and Great Wonders"

but we could call ourselves lucky if we are actually free to time our GA...

Against the AI, yes. Against 6 human teams, I am not so sure. We already have an offer which would ensure this. I can easily imagine that other teams would be willing to help us, too. I would say this is not a question of luck, it is a question of price. And clever foreign politics.

Just BTW... I thought I would list wonders that may trigger our GA, too.

Excellent idea, I will add this to the study above.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by delmar
"Only possible"? I gave two other suggestions above...

Originally posted by delmar
Then here is one: don't build any. Before you ban me from Legoland forever for infinit stupidity

, let me tell you that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't build any Mercs, period. It is just an idea that could be considered, modified, constrained, etc.

And here is another one: play down the importance of a golden age. The Golden Age assurance offered by the GoW team is an excellent opportunity to do this. Maybe we should pretend we don't care when/if we have a golden age.

Briefly: I do not consider the first idea reasonable at all. While it would really prevent others from triggering our Golden Ages, it would make it very likely that another civ triggers our Dark Ages. Defending with warriors, archers, swordsmen, chariots, and horsemen is just too risky.

Dunno how the second idea helps preventing others from triggering our GA. That would help us trigger our GA, not the other way round. If another team decides they go to war against us and they want to have us our GA early, we will have to put up with the fact we will have our GA early (unless we are able to wipe out invaders with non-Merc forces assigned to guard open terrain). We would have to defend with the best units we'd have at our disposal. If they get close enough to attack our Merc... Golden Ages, here they come.

Originally posted by delmar
Can you be a bit more specific? I think the only improvement is the Cathedral, which I consider rather useless, and the only fine GW is Leonardo's. I find the value of the other two "Great" Wonders (Sun Tzu's and Sistine Chapel) rather questionable. Well, I see another great opportunity for a study coming up: "The importance of city improvements and Great Wonders"

In early medieval, you hardly have all the late ancient improvements built. Marketplaces, Aqueducts, Libraries, Harbours, Colloseums or Cathedrals, strenghtening defenses in borderline cities... Grabbing any of the Leo, Sun Tzu & Sistine would be great. Not that they would necessarily fit our strategy. But we do not want others to build them. GW denial, if nothing else - we do not want any warmongers to have any one of them, and especially not any two of them at the same time. Accelerated research can help us gain the lead either in the Education branch or the Gundpowder branch, whatever may be better at that time.

**Kloreep** · June 10, 2005, 17:02

Thread "A word of warning from GoW"
First post 29/12/2002

Originally posted by Spiffor
I was chatting with a member of GoW yesterday. He asked not to disclose his identity, so I'll respect his wish.

He warned me about Neu Demogyptica, who plays the expansionist / religious Arabs. They alledgedly have contact with 2 other teams than GoW, and are supposed ot be technologically advanced.

My personal conclusions of this warning are :
- I doubt I have been the only one warned of the ND danger, and it is very possible several teams gang up on them early, to avoid them becoming way too powerful.
- There is a large landmass out there where at least 4 civs grow. If GoW is indeed in our landmass, then we might experience early wars sooner as we'd want.
- GoW either wants us to be wary of another team than them, or they really intend to associate us in their concerns.

My contact also told me of GoW's concept of "guaranteed trade" : we discuss a trade even before making in-game contact. Should the trade become outdated (for example, they offer Warrior Code for Alphabet, but discovered Alphabet before making in game contact), they still give the tech regardless.
This concept needs a high level of trust, and I advise our ambassador to GoW to know more about this.

Lastly, my contact talked about how potent an alliance between builders and warmongers would be (in which I agreed).
I don't know what were lies and what were truths in his words, but I assume he mostly spoke the truth, since very few critical information was given, excpet the rise in power of ND.

Originally posted by vondrack
Interesting information, Spiffor... my impression is that GoW are serious about cooperating with us, seeing ND as the primary threat at the present time. Considering the fact that they are (one of) our closest neighbours, I am all for being as friendly with them as possible. Being friendly and having just one heavily guarded bottleneck should be enough to make us safe from their direction. And that we definitely want.

I guess it would be a fine gesture to trade our minimap now. I would suggest trading the minimap BEFORE we found our second city, to disclose as little important information as possible. The later, the better (so that Conan manages to move into the blocking position), but definitely BEFORE founding the Eastern Shore City, so that they do not know what direction we expand in. What do you, guys, think?

Originally posted by Tiberius
I'm also for friendly relations with GoW. They need an ally against other teams, nobody can win/survive on their own. A builder/warmongerer alliance is definitely a very powerful one.

We should trade the minimaps, I guess, as a gesture of good will. They could decide to attack us, but with the mercenaries defending our cities, I think they have more to lose fighting instead of cooperating with us. We could exchange techs and luxuries/resources, maps and so on. Having them fighting our wars would be probably our biggest profit in this relation.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Vondrack : i absolutely agree. Maybe we should set up a poll about the issue ?

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Spiffor
Vondrack : i absolutely agree. Maybe we should set up a poll about the issue ?

There is no need - a recent poll about trading our current minimap authorized (by the majority of 6 votes out of 12) trading our minimap with GoW. Thus, I am hereby authorizing ZargonX, the Ambassador of Legoland to Glory of War, to trade our 3150BC minimap for their 3150BC or newer minimap (I have just sent the minimap image to ZargonX via email).

EDIT: Besides, I would like ZargonX to find out more about what kind of "guaranteed trades" GoW currently offer. Tell them we might be interested in The Wheel and Iron Working, being willing to trade for anything we currently know, plus Pottery and Writing (once we research them). This is not not say we would exchange all of what we know for all of what they know. Just that these techs are available for trade. Let they say what they offer for a "guaranteed" trade.

I believe it is okay to offer even Writing, 'cause if they agree to the deal, Writing will be the obvious choice for us.

EDIT #2: I must have been out of my mind, speaking of Literature instead of Writing... corrected in order to minimize confusion. Thanks for pointing it out to me, Tibi!

Originally posted by Tiberius
Radek, didn't you want to say "writing" instead of "literature" ? Literature seems a little too much for me to give away. Otherwise I agree with the plan.

If things are going well with GoW, we should start thinking on signing a special treaty with them, including research sharing, a mutual non-aggression pact and other clauses. But first things first: let's see their reaction when they find out that we are neighbors.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, I am sending the mini-map along to Panzer32 tonight. Hopefully, we will hear back from them soon, with their own mini-map. From there, I will broach the discussion of future trades.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Tiberius
Radek, didn't you want to say "writing" instead of "literature" ? Literature seems a little too much for me to give away. Otherwise I agree with the plan.

If things are going well with GoW, we should start thinking on signing a special treaty with them, including research sharing, a mutual non-aggression pact and other clauses. But first things first: let's see their reaction when they find out that we are neighbors.

Doh...

of course I am talking about Writing... I honestly don't know what I'd do without you, Tibi. You seem to be so good at telling others what I really wanted to say...

Originally posted by Tiberius

Originally posted by vondrack
I honestly don't know what I'd do without you, Tibi. You seem to be so good at telling others what I really wanted to say...

Do I sense here a shadow of critisism ? I only wanted to help

Nah, I must be paranoid and can't recognize a joke anymore

I can't wait to see their minimap ....

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Tiberius
Do I sense here a shadow of critisism ? I only wanted to help

Nah, I must be paranoid and can't recognize a joke anymore

I can't wait to see their minimap ....

I was serious, no sarcasm nor irony involved. This was for the second time you corrected something I said completely wrong, while thinking of the correct. No criticism at all. Just keep correcting me!

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, the mini-map has been sent to GoW as of one minute ago (7:54 EST). We'll see how quickly they get back to us with their map, at which point I will send it directly to Vondrack.

Originally posted by Jack_www
My personal Opion of this is that it may very well be dissinformation. GoW is willing to be bought off by the highest bider. They may very well be trying to get us to hire them to go to war with ND. I would be carefull trusting GoW. Allthough as allies they would be great to have if they could be trusted.

But I also see reason to believe GoW. The fact the ND refused to receive our abassadors before in game contact, when all other teams were recieving abassadors. I would like to start asking around the other teams and see what they dealings with ND have been, and if they have gotten a simmilar respon from ND as we have. Might help clear the picture up.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Jack_www
My personal Opion of this is that it may very well be dissinformation. GoW is willing to be bought off by the highest bider. They may very well be trying to get us to hire them to go to war with ND. I would be carefull trusting GoW. Allthough as allies they would be great to have if they could be trusted.

GoW certainly realizes that unless ND poses an immediate threat to our empire, we are unlikely to hire them... now, if we suppose ND has a contact with GoW, then they are not to our south -> they can't be a threat to us now.

Even if GoW is unaware of where we are, which I doubt (I assume they got the same kind of information about our location from Togas as we did about theirs - that's why they pursue diplomatic contact and even informally propose trading... not having an idea about where we are, it would make little sense or would at least be very premature)... so, even if they are unaware of where we are, they will realize we are not going to hire them in the near future.

Originally posted by Jack_www
But I also see reason to believe GoW. The fact the ND refused to receive our abassadors before in game contact, when all other teams were recieving abassadors. I would like to start asking around the other teams and see what they dealings with ND have been, and if they have gotten a simmilar respon from ND as we have. Might help clear the picture up.

This is a good idea. May I ask all our ambassadors to contact their counterparts and try finding out what kind of relations they have with ND? I understand we are unlikely to gain any significant info, but at least, we can try.

Originally posted by Tiberius
A say let not jump on ND now only because the GoF warned us. They've refused our ambassador because (they said) until we meet in the game there's no point to discuss things. This is fair-play attitude, so I say we should wait before we declare ND the black sheep of this game. It does help to be careful, but so far we have no reason to trust one team more than another. (except maybe the RP).

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Tiberius
A say let not jump on ND now only because the GoF warned us. They've refused our ambassador because (they said) until we meet in the game there's no point to discuss things. This is fair-play attitude, so I say we should wait before we declare ND the black sheep of this game. It does help to be careful, but so far we have no reason to trust one team more than another. (except maybe the RP).

Well, ND is the only civ with the expansionist trait, IIRC. That makes them the black sheep almost automatically, because thanks to this trait they are likely to gain an initial advantage, indirectly forcing other teams to cooperate against them in order to neutralize their potential. This demogame will most of all be about balance. Anyone gaining a lead is likely to lose allies and friends...

Originally posted by Nimitz
RP says they haven't told or shown any one where we are because that was our wishes, they also say they gave us the local to warn us because they want us around. I don't know if thats the truth but they haven't lied yet to us.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Nimitz
RP says they haven't told or shown any one where we are because that was our wishes, they also say they gave us the local to warn us because they want us around. I don't know if thats the truth but they haven't lied yet to us.

I tend to trust RPers as far as this matter is concerned - if GoW knew (or had at least an idea about) where we had started, they would probably not be that eager to exchange minimaps and talk about beneficial warmonger-builder alliances...

I guess RPers will be surprised how long we will hang around...

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