Who Has the Game Save? Part III

[DeepO]

vondrack, those are the correct conditions, and AFAIK they happen like that for GS. I'm not sure whether we currently have a city in precisely those conditions, though, we surely had size 10 cities, with 5 happy, 5 content in WLTKD.

An update on the bug: Trip has confirmed it's a large one. We do not see any way to solve it, but we can compensate part of its effect. At least, we have to go back one turn to take some precautions on our side. I'll try to do that this evening, but it's going to take a while to calculate everything, and to make sure our workaround works. Please bear with us if this takes longer then expected.

But this will not solve the bug. Most likely, in a few turns time, we will need to take a time-out again, possibly trying something, and if that doesn't work go back a turn again. I'm sorry if I can't be more specific on what's going on. The diplo screen certainly is going to be doing strange things the following few turns, it's very likely we lose our trades to all or some teams. Please do not be mad at us, if things go wrong, we'll have to go back one turn again.

This is certainly not the best way of proceeding, and I surely hope it's not going to turn into an Echternach procession (3 steps forward, 2 steps back, 3 steps forward,...). But there is little we can do

I'll try to get the turn out this evening, or night.

DeepO

PS: this bug is going to cost us a lot. The precise effects aren't clear yet, but I estimate roughly 300 gpt if we would continue from the current turn onwards. In case we can compensate a little here and there, I hope the effect will be more on the order of 50 gpt or so. And it's going to stay with us for a long time to come, possibly till the end of the game (unless the game somehow cures itself). So if anyone wants to deposit some money in the victims-relief fund, we are open for any donations. Oh, and they will be tax-deductable for sure

[vondrack]

Originally posted by DeepO
vondrack, those are the correct conditions, and AFAIK they happen like that for GS. I'm not sure whether we currently have a city in precisely those conditions, though, we surely had size 10 cities, with 5 happy, 5 content in WLTKD.

Well, then, we had a bug hitting us as well. We had a number of cities at pop 12, with 6 happy and 6 content citizens, which stopped celebrating and haven't started again even on the next turn (it had to do with some lux deals expiring and being only partially renewed).

It did complicate some of our builds at that time (as the shield output dropped a bit here and there), but it was no big deal, so I just mentioned that in our forum and made few adjustments to get the cities back on track... not sure how much that cost (and still cost) us actually.

BTW... if it is about gold - would it be possible to use Gramphos' savegame editor to give you that gold back in? I admit I have never tried using it, not even in SP, so it may be a complete nonsense... but I thought I'd ask. While I understand it's not really fair to have you lose that gold, I am quite sure Lego has no spare funds at the moment... unless... unless... perhaps... but there are restrictions on selling certain technologies to Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Lybia, and Legoland, so... um, no... that would not work.

Though, if there is a team that can afford to lose 300gpt for quite some time, then it's you, is it not? Even after the recent spendings...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vondrack
It did complicate some of our builds at that time (as the shield output dropped a bit here and there), but it was no big deal, so I just mentioned that in our forum and made few adjustments to get the cities back on track... not sure how much that cost (and still cost) us actually.

That surely does sound like a bug. But there is one big difference between our 2 nations: if we would be hit by that bug, it would cost us many more shields then the 1 or 2 the loss of WLTKD costs. We are literally using all our available land tiles, so losing 1 or 2 shields can mess up our completion times of things. Going from 40spt to 39 spt when building a cathedral doesn't lose 1 spt, but 17 spt (1 turn more on a 2-turn building). It's easier for you to compensate than it is for us... but it's still a pain

BTW... if it is about gold - would it be possible to use Gramphos' savegame editor to give you that gold back in? I admit I have never tried using it, not even in SP, so it may be a complete nonsense... but I thought I'd ask.

I don't know. I tend to keep away from editors and trainers... I don't really like the idea. If we can minimise the loss, it's fine by me, but 300 gpt is simply too much, you can imagine that.

While I understand it's not really fair to have you lose that gold, I am quite sure Lego has no spare funds at the moment... unless... unless... perhaps... but there are restrictions on selling certain technologies to Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Lybia, and Legoland, so... um, no... that would not work.

It's more like Cuba selling a super de luxe anti nuclear missile protection system to the 'Evil' US, you mean Not much point in trading away our only benefit we have, if it will be used for an invasion of loads of Lego tanks a few turns later

Though, if there is a team that can afford to lose 300gpt for quite some time, then it's you, is it not? Even after the recent spendings...

300gpt or equivalent? Hey, we're ranked #4 in about everything! Only disease is the one area in which we are unbeated to this day!

And those recent spendings: it would surely be a lot cheaper if a certain nation would keep its transports at a reasonable distance from our coast, so we can afford to focus on science and happiness instead of spending money to replace our beloved spears by Kalashnikovs.

DeepO

[vondrack]

Originally posted by DeepO
That surely does sound like a bug. But there is one big difference between our 2 nations: if we would be hit by that bug, it would cost us many more shields then the 1 or 2 the loss of WLTKD costs. We are literally using all our available land tiles, so losing 1 or 2 shields can mess up our completion times of things. Going from 40spt to 39 spt when building a cathedral doesn't lose 1 spt, but 17 spt (1 turn more on a 2-turn building). It's easier for you to compensate than it is for us... but it's still a pain

Well, no, in this regard, it was the same - we have had our builds tightly planned as well and had to redo them to accomodate for the loss of WLTKD shields (remember we were at pop 12 w/o hospitals, so our options were limited as well). We had to shortrush some, delay some, waste some, or build something else. But in the grand scheme of things, it was not a game breaker. Certainly not like losing 300gpt.

Besides, I was not sure if the bug was with the game or my memory...

Originally posted by DeepO
I don't know. I tend to keep away from editors and trainers... I don't really like the idea. If we can minimise the loss, it's fine by me, but 300 gpt is simply too much, you can imagine that.

Well, generally editing a PBEM save is a big no-no, that's for sure. But if it was the only way out and the edit was done by Trip, I believe few would object. Not me, at least.

Originally posted by DeepO
And those recent spendings: it would surely be a lot cheaper if a certain nation would keep its transports at a reasonable distance from our coast, so we can afford to focus on science and happiness instead of spending money to replace our beloved spears by Kalashnikovs.

Are we... are we talking about that single caravel aatw asked to be removed? Can't believe that... or are there other civs doing such nasty things to you?



Anyway, you will be happy to hear that Horatio Nelson is scheduled to sail home in 1090AD, after being replaced by a totally harmless, already obsolete picket ironclad.

Oh, btw, we appreciate that a certain nation removed their galleon from the vicinity of our territorial waters, replacing it with a, uhm, totally harmless, even if not obsolete yet destroyer.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vondrack

Well, no, in this regard, it was the same - we have had our builds tightly planned as well and had to redo them to accomodate for the loss of WLTKD shields (remember we were at pop 12 w/o hospitals, so our options were limited as well). We had to shortrush some, delay some, waste some, or build something else.

I think I didn't write what I intended to say: I know this, of course. The thing is: our options aren't as good as yours because of the limitation of tiles. In case you miss one shield, you work a shield rich tile for a turn (even if this means hunger in your cities) and it's fixed. OTOH, if you've got too many shields, you simply use more food rich tiles. We don't have that luxury, without messing up the neighboring cities... which is also the reason why pollution is so bad for us.

Well, generally editing a PBEM save is a big no-no, that's for sure. But if it was the only way out and the edit was done by Trip, I believe few would object. Not me, at least.

Let's first see if we can work around it by going back a turn, and taking special precautions later on. I've got good hopes on this... We won't ever fully compensate our losses, but I rather loose a little (so no 300 gpt, which is unacceptable), then having to mess with a save editor. And Trip seems to be very busy right now, I doubt he's got the time to fool around and to test things. So let's keep this as a last ditch solution, perhaps?

Are we... are we talking about that single caravel aatw asked to be removed? Can't believe that... or are there other civs doing such nasty things to you?

well, let's just say we didn't feel safe anymore, on our cosy little island, protected by spears and pikes on our hills, but none in our cities. That situation has been resolved, but probably needs further improvement to keep you big countries from getting any ideas.

Anyway, you will be happy to hear that Horatio Nelson is scheduled to sail home in 1090AD, after being replaced by a totally harmless, already obsolete picket ironclad.

Thanks.

Oh, btw, we appreciate that a certain nation removed their galleon from the vicinity of our territorial waters, replacing it with a, uhm, totally harmless, even if not obsolete yet destroyer.

perhaps... maybe we'll just let you guys sweat a little, like you did to us

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

[vondrack]

Originally posted by DeepO
I think I didn't write what I intended to say: I know this, of course. The thing is: our options aren't as good as yours because of the limitation of tiles. In case you miss one shield, you work a shield rich tile for a turn (even if this means hunger in your cities) and it's fixed. OTOH, if you've got too many shields, you simply use more food rich tiles. We don't have that luxury, without messing up the neighboring cities... which is also the reason why pollution is so bad for us.

I understood you correctly. Let's just say that it was not possible to fix the problem with just "working shield-richer tiles on the next turn".

Anyway, glad to see the re-play is under way.

[DeepO]

okay, very possible that that's the case, of course... especially if it's only one turn in which the loss of WLTKD occurs. Sometimes, you end up with an empty foodbox. In that case, very little to do then to switch builds, or delay it, and use all available workers to switch your mines to irr (and back to mines again next turn)

And let's hope this replay is the last one. There shouldn't be any problem next turn, so we should be able to progress to 1100 AD undisturbed, but after that, more problems are going to creep up.

Oh, and we're losing some gpt (or equivalent), but for the moment it's under control. I think something close to 30 gpt right now, 50 gpt next turn, and nearing 100 gpt in 3 or 4 turns. But we should be able to reset it around that time, and get it close to 0 after that. Can't tell you more, let's first of all see how it goes, and if our workarounds are working... around

DeepO

[vondrack]

I would like to take this opportunity and nominate DeepO for "The Most Mysterious Bug Reporter".

[DeepO]

Well, I'll disclose all bugs after they are no longer important

DeepO

[vondrack]

C'mon, MZ, you did it once, you can do it again!

[Jon Shafer]

He's lazy and he sucks.

[vondrack]

[Master Zen]

Ok, I HAVE to explain...

I am at my aunt's house in Mexico City for the week and though I have Civ here, I am using a crappy modem and my Civ account is HUGE (think all the PBEMs since around april). As you can imagine, it would take like 4-5 hours to download it all so I can get to the latest ones and well, since my family needs the phone line, I can't stay on for that long...

... so I asked my landlady's son in Puebla to go to my room, download my e-mail and send the PTWDG to my personal account which is not nearly as big and I can download here.

Yes, that's what I get for not setting up a webmail for my accounts

Anyway, in case I get the next save (be it a new one or another replay of this one ) please send it to raguil AT mzocentral DOT net. After next monday I will be home again

Thanks and apologies

-MZ

[conmcb25]

I think most of us believe its just because you are Lazy and suck.