Issues that Should Be Decided NOW

[LzPrst]

weeeeell... city razing must be allowed, scorched earth!

gifting cities left and right, sure why not?

teleport... tough one, but then again, a gift from one civ to another is a gift nonetheless.

allow all of it!

the barrack sun tzu thing on the other hand... that's just insane, there should be a difference between wonder-kept improvements and regular ones. stupid firaxis.

[Arrian]

I don't even think that RP making sure there was a nice military stack inside of Toledo when it was gifted, transporting them to the front is an exploit. I call all of that smart gaming.

Now, whatever happened with Inchon, and I don't know for sure, only GS can answer this. But, if the sole purpose for gifting that city for one turn was to teleport troops, I call that a blatant exploit of game mechanics and a deplorable move.

So, bottom line: If you are permanently gifting a city, sure, take advantage of the warp. If you only want a warp, I see it as wrong.

I disagree - it's gotta be all or nothing.

For the record, Inchon was used to teleport RP troops. You feel that's an exploit (but that the teleportation of Toledo's forces or Vox's forces in the Voxodus weren't??). I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward "exploit" and am perfectly willing to have it declared so for the purposes of this game - all or nothing, though. Either there can be no troops in a city when gifting, or there is no restriction.

Abandoning cities is fine by me. Sometimes that's just smart military tactics.

-Arrian

[FrustratedPoet]

I'm also in the all-or-nothing camp with Arrian. Either we allow units to be teleported when cities are gifted or we don't. If we allow certain exceptions then we're just creating areas for argument later on.

Either it's allowed or it's banned for this game. I don't mind either way, but I think we should have a poll and decide one way or another before the game gets very much further.

[Hot_Enamel]

Re: Issues that Should Be Decided NOW

Originally posted by ZargonX

-Force Teleporting. Some consider it an exploit, some consider it good use of game mechanics. Time to decide officially whether it will be allowed in this game or not.

Clearly a game exploit. If the intention of gifting cities is teleport units... then it should be banned

Originally posted by ZargonX
-Razing cities before they are taken. (The Lux Maneuver). There has been discussion as to whether it is in the spirit of the game, or just a cheap way to deny your enemies their victories out of spite. In the same vein...

Valid strategy

Originally posted by ZargonX
-Gifting away cities that are about to be taken. (The Espana Maneuver). Again, smart strategic move, or cheap way or screwing with your enemies?

Certainly considered a hostile act ... but a valid strategy.

[FrustratedPoet]

Re: Re: Issues that Should Be Decided NOW

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
If the intention of gifting cities is teleport units... then it should be banned

This kind of thing would only create problems. We don't want their to be a situation where one team says "Well, there might have been a few units in the city when we gifted it, but that really wasn't our main intention. It's just a lucky coincidence that those units went to the war-zone".

I'm sure that either permitting it under all circumstances or banning it outright will be best solution.

(and by "banning it outright" I don't mean that all city gifting should be banned, but just that any city that is gifted MUST be completely empty of units. No exceptions.)

[Arrian]

Exactly. If there is any ambiguity, they we open ourselves up to arguments later. If we do that, then why even bother establishing rules? All or nothing on the city gifting. I vote no gifting with units inside (or, if for some reason it has to be done, any units that warp to your capitol must be disbanded - outside a city - on the next turn).

-Arrian

[ZargonX]

Personally, I am strongly against force teleporting. I feel it is an abuse of game mechanics, and as such should not be allowed. It is very easy to move your forces out of a city before you gift it, so if it is banned, there shouldn't be any arguments about whether people "meant" to teleport units or not.

[Konquest02]

I agree about the forced teleporting. It's an exploit of the game's mechanics and it shouldn't be used at all, by any team. By banning it completely, we remove all amiguities that could arise later on.

The others (Lux and Espana maneuvers) are clearly hostile acts,but valid strategies that may be used by anyone.

--Kon--

[FrustratedPoet]

Zargon and Konquest02: Just out of interest (and please don't see this as a flame) did you speak out in your fourms when force teleporting was used during the Voxodus?

[ZargonX]

Actually, FP, I did not. And you are absolutely right to bring it up. It demonstrates a good point: I didn't complain because I didn't really think of it as hurting anyone. However, one cannot judge this sort of thing on a situational basis; it's all or nothing. And, like I've said, I'm definately in the "nothing" category now.

[Theseus]

I would concur that it is easier if force teleporting is banned altogether.

Razing and gifting, fine.

The seagoing fortification trick... out.

The GW tricks... out.

[BigFree]

Maybe we should ask Firaxis what is considered an 'exploit' and what is not. I'm of the opinion if the game allows it, then it is fine; unless it is clearly a bug.

You have to admit, these issues we are discussing add a new dimension to the game.

[mrmitchell]

The map should go back to the drawing board. It should be a scenario that includes Spam, Rye, Spam on Rye, Eggs, Spam, Spam, Spam, and Spam, and Donuts as unique units.

[Beta]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Zargon and Konquest02: Just out of interest (and please don't see this as a flame) did you speak out in your fourms when force teleporting was used during the Voxodus?

I did. I was fully expecting to use galleys. I truly dislike some of the exploits - and this one most of all. I feel all teleporting should be banned. The game mechanics should move the units a tile adjacent to the city gifted - perhaps the one closest to the civ's capitol.

The razing and gfifting of cities I am OK with. As has been pointed out by a number of folks - and most recently Niessuh - there are historical precedents.

[Arrian]

Well, it seems to me we have a general concensus, do we not?

- teleporting is right out. Cities must be emptied prior to gifting.

- razing/gifting is fine.

- the wonder tricks are out

Not sure what Theseus meant by "seagoing fortification."

Can anyone think of any other issues we need to clarify up front?

-Arrian