Will the Real Puppet Master Please Stand Up?

[Aqualung71]

It has been suggested that the Horde are the puppet masters of this game.

This statement of course must be taken with a large dose of salts, since it was made by none other than Micha, the Court Jester of Babylon.

In particular, this was posted (in the Battle Reports thread, of all places )

Originally posted by Micha
That´ll be the Horde then. They are masters of trickery and - IMO - the puppet masters of this game. I mean, they managed to pull a team to their side which they had just stopped slaughtering. Impressive!

The Desolation Row would like to clarfiy that we dance to nobody's tune but our own, nor does anyone else pull our strings, least of all the Great Khan of the BOH. Furthermore, we certainly have not been "pulled to their side"......in fact, I am horrified at the visual imagery accompanying such a statement

Let it be stated clearly then, that the Desolation Row is not currently part of any alliance, nor has it ever been.

However, it does seem clear that copious amounts of woollen material have been pulled over many people's eyes in this wartorn world of ours, and the most obvious victim is truth

[E_T]

Well, the reasons why we would think that you are in an alliance with BoH:

1) BoH has lots of cash to build an embassy and then STEAL Fuedalism from us. With their large Army, low numbr of cities and likely high Lux% (because of size 8 of Blood Hall), they don't have that much cashflow. So, where did they get the cash??

2) You gave Monotheism to someone, very likely BoH. In return, BoH gave you Feudalism, Immediately on stealing it from us. That at least sounds like a tech alliance, to me.

3) BoH (looking back) purposefully moved their SoD, 1 turn's move off the quckest path, allowing you to further re-enforce Antioch. This also coincided with a 1 turn's delay with getting Currency, with which they were to send to us for us to get Next age tech. They didn't get it from Euphorica and it's now suspected that they had not even researched it (again, that cashflow problem), but had gotten it from you. The delay also allowed our forces to attack you, bringing us fully into this.

There are a few others, but I've got to get my dinner started, so I'll post this now.

E_T

[Aqualung71]

Thank you for the open and clear response, giving me the opportunity to correct your misapprehensions:

Originally posted by E_T
Well, the reasons why we would think that you are in an alliance with BoH:

1) BoH has lots of cash to build an embassy and then STEAL Fuedalism from us. With their large Army, low numbr of cities and likely high Lux% (because of size 8 of Blood Hall), they don't have that much cashflow. So, where did they get the cash??

In short, your guess is as good as mine....my guess is, they've been saving it. We have given no cash to the BOH.

2) You gave Monotheism to someone, very likely BoH. In return, BoH gave you Feudalism, Immediately on stealing it from us. That at least sounds like a tech alliance, to me.

No, that sounds like a tech trade. While I will neither confirm nor deny specific tech trades, I will say that we have traded techs with most civs in this game at one time or another, as has Babylon I presume. This does not imply a tech trading alliance.

3) BoH (looking back) purposefully moved their SoD, 1 turn's move off the quckest path, allowing you to further re-enforce Antioch. This also coincided with a 1 turn's delay with getting Currency, with which they were to send to us for us to get Next age tech. They didn't get it from Euphorica and it's now suspected that they had not even researched it (again, that cashflow problem), but had gotten it from you. The delay also allowed our forces to attack you, bringing us fully into this.

Most of your point relates to internal dealings between you and your former allies, so I have no comment. With respect to your assertion that we traded Currency to the Horde, I refer you back to my comment above......I will neither confirm nor deny this specific alleged trade, yet a tech trade does not imply an alliance is in existence.


To make things perfectly clear, what I will say is that the Desolation Row have signed a Peace Treaty with the BOH.

[snoopy369]

BoH couldn't have gotten currency from DR unless AM was involved - which is possible. Krill or Ormuzd would have to have sent this... and if you are right, this betrayal reaches further back than it was implied by the BoH (as their 'evidence' dates back not that far)...

I appreciate your candor, Aqua, even if you don't feel like you can confirm details that I agree are certainly private matters if you wish them to be. Euphorica will likewise be fully willing to answer any direct questions, were they to be proposed.

I don't suggest that the BoH is pulling any strings directly, nor that any other civ dances to their tune (we are the musical accompaniement ) However, I feel that the culture of betrayal and mistrust engendered by the BoH's actions is literally destroying this game - not only for the betrayed, but for everyone. If betrayal is to be the way of Civ, then I want no part in Civ ... and it will be, I assure you, if more and more civs get away with significant betrayals without consequences from other teams, for not only will those teams continue betraying others, but other teams will begin to see that there are no negative consequences to their actions ... and Civ will degenerate into "who can betray who more", where you can't trust anyone to stick by deals any further than their immediate self-interest. Might as well play against AI's ...

[/philosophical rant]

[ormuzd]

Please, do not involve us in this talks. We were neutral in this was helping neither of the sides. The only help was the investigtion of Antioch which you sent just few days later to DR. I still don't understand what was the purpose of this but I had hard times explaining this act.

[Moonbars]

I must have missed when you explained how a "neutral" country could have spied on our nation and sold it down the river to our enemies.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by ormuzd
I still don't understand what was the purpose of this but I had hard times explaining this act.

Indeed, you are still having a hard time giving a plausible explanation for this act

[E_T]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Indeed, you are still having a hard time giving a plausible explanation for this act

Why for the $$$, BIG $$$

E_T

[Micha]

Hehe, court Jester...

I was *not* referring to DR when I said that the BOH pulled a team to their side which they just stopped slaughtering. You can guess for yourself, I don´t think it´s that hard really

In hindsight, we fell for deception more than once because we discussed the risks internally and came to the conclusion that the players involved are very honourable and will thus stick to their word. We are looking beyond the rim of our cup. There are other games to follow this one, and reputation will always follow you.

I couldn´t believe the levels of treachery and deception during this DG, and we indeed imposed a "no comment" strategy to not insult players personally in the open forums during the days of dissolution of the TNA and then again when AM declared war (no wait, they never actually declared war).

We are much into roleplay and stuff, but some things need limitation. Paddy´s mails have been a good example for crossing the border of RP. This is past now, but this game is getting considerably less fun with each case of blunt lying and treason.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Micha

We are much into roleplay and stuff, but some things need limitation. Paddy´s mails have been a good example for crossing the border of RP. This is past now, but this game is getting considerably less fun with each case of blunt lying and treason.

really... as I requested information on whether or not your team had honoured the tech agreement

you are a precious commodity in this game old salt...

I still enjoy the fact that after so many emails, your team still could not answer the question with a yes or no...

struth such a simple process, and yes, I should never have bothered asking, I should have trusted nearly every other member of the Horde who said Babylon would again renig on their word fancy me thinking that cause you had Beta, Kloreep, Shogun Gunner and a few others, thjat your team was to be trusted yes my error

so call us out for lying and accuse us of no honour all you like, we are quite past your accusations, as even Beta has agreed in another thread, that your team changed its mind after the fact and with held the techs of Monarchy, and later Feudalism.

so chin chin matey, and no worries, your team will surely survive at least 4 - 5 more turns...

I am most curious though if you are invading us, then how will you hold off the Morporkians? that sir is a great wonder of this game

[Micha]

I am most curious though if you are invading us, then how will you hold off the Morporkians? that sir is a great wonder of this game

Wait and see, matey, wait and see!

(Though the effect is much more wonderous when you empty your lands of any military units beforehand... Just try it, then you´ll see what I mean...)

Unfortunately I have been told to stop revealing our secret military operational plans (and resume taking my medication), so the exact details of the upcoming blitzkrieg will remain secret for a few more turns. Expect something fancy, large scale, with lots of warlike things attached to it.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Micha

I am most curious though if you are invading us, then how will you hold off the Morporkians? that sir is a great wonder of this game

Wait and see, matey, wait and see!

(Though the effect is much more wonderous when you empty your lands of any military units beforehand... Just try it, then you´ll see what I mean...)

Unfortunately I have been told to stop revealing our secret military operational plans (and resume taking my medication), so the exact details of the upcoming blitzkrieg will remain secret for a few more turns. Expect something fancy, large scale, with lots of warlike things attached to it.

heheh I so understand

we are trialiong a new unit at this time as well

[PLATO]

oh my! This is grand! My first foray into the world of diplomacy and I am being accused of manipulating the entire game! Wow! What a great compliment from some of the best players in the world!

I do wish I had the skill you credit me with! haha.

Unfortunately, the truth is not so machevelian. The truth is that we have just responded to what we felt were betrayals by whom we thought were allies. Given the way we have been talked about since, I would have to say we did the right thing.

Still though, I am wondering if E_T can tell me where Elvis is and who shot Kennedy?????

[Paddy]

Originally posted by PLATO
oh my! This is grand! My first foray into the world of diplomacy and I am being accused of manipulating the entire game! Wow! What a great compliment from some of the best players in the world!

I do wish I had the skill you credit me with! haha.

Unfortunately, the truth is not so machevelian. The truth is that we have just responded to what we felt were betrayals by whom we thought were allies. Given the way we have been talked about since, I would have to say we did the right thing.

Still though, I am wondering if E_T can tell me where Elvis is and who shot Kennedy?????

Elvis lives in Ta-Tu, and Ljube killed Kennedy

[Ljube]

I see that several members of team Babylon and Euphorica have joined the lost boys group.

Is it a sign they are retiring their own civs? Turning into refugees?


Perhaps Paddy's bed time stories scared them. Big bad Paddy!