Pre-poll discussion: Design the New Constitution.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Please submit all ideas for a new constitution, perhaps even a rough draft here, please, and discuss.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Things to think on:

Elections: What do you want elected, do you want the appoint/confirm as we had with the VP last time?

There are pro's and con's to that.

Court, how to choose Judges, how long is a Judge's term?

Polling standard: How long must Polls/bills/whatever be open to be official? Do they need a specific structure? (abstain, etc) What does abstain mean?

How Many Ministers we want?

Most voted for writting a new Constitution, let's hear it! What needed changing from the current one?

[GodKing]

I will look at revising the con from last time and posting it this weekend. Personally, I thought it worked rather well except in two areas.

DM responsibilities - these were just to much and too big. I will look at ways to split this.

VP - I like the person being elected seperately. Also, I would ask if they can also get the SpElzE power from the gOds.

[Aidun]

About the seperation of powers from Montesquieu.

Judges should be appointed and not elected: the justicial power, one of the three powers in a state should be independent from the legislative power and the executive power. The legislative power, we all, elected judges in C3DG nr.1.

The executive power should not have the right to veto any amendment or bill approved by the legislative power.

The executive power should be allowed to propose bills themselves without having to seek a senator that is willing to post a bill.

Aidun

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Aidun
About the seperation of powers from Montesquieu.

Judges should be appointed and not chosen

You mean elected ?

[Aidun]

Sorry for the bad english, I'll, change it immediately

Aidun

[civman2000]

My constitution proposal is here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=72122

Perhaps we could make a few changes, but it seem pretty much OK IMHO.

[Kloreep]

I agree we should use the NewCon as a base, but there are many things that need to be added or removed:

- Everyone, regardless of government position, can propose bills.
- Allow several bills to be voted on in one poll.
- Have the Prez choose two candidates for VP, to be chosen between in a vote (Prez still approves of whoever his VP is, but the people have more choice without having to vote someone down)

I'm not sure I agree with Aidun about electing judges (what would they campaign on?), but I agree veto should be removed. Let the people do as they want (see my sig ).

[Aidun]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I'm not sure I agree with Aidun about electing judges (what would they campaign on?)

I don't want the judges be elected and yes, there is nothing to campaign for.

Imagine: Unortho is president, I'm elected as judge because I'm member of the DIA and the DIA has a majority in the Senate. The DIA is not in the cabinet and is effectively trying to oppose this cabinet. During a turnchat something happens and it is UNCLEAR whether the president should be impeached for it or not. My DIA friends tell me to vote in the court for impeachement. The court agrees on impeachment and Unortho, a succesful president, is being impeached.

Why?

BECAUSE THE APOLYTONIAN JUSTICE IS NOT OBJECTIVE, UNORTHO GET'S NO FAIR TRIAL BECAUSE THE SENATE ELECTS JUDGES.

THAT IS A RIDICULOUS SITUATION!

If the govenment would have appointed the judges, Unortho would have had a fairer trial: the paries in the government change every month and judges serve more than a month: the composition of the court represents all parties no matter of their power in the Senate. If we appoint judges, we can hold FAIR trials.

Aidun

[Kloreep]

Should have read your post more closely. So if I understand correctly, you mean there shouldn't be an approval vote? The Prez just appoints judge(s) upon election and that's that? Or something different?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Reguarding the DM position:

I would like to add a part allowing any DM to alter the save specifically, and only for setting up ques and moving workers around the city grid, PERHAPS even issuing worker orders, but that is debatable, then reposting the save before a turnchat.

From what amounted to really the final full chat, I spent more than half of that time issuing all those before the first turn. This would let the DM do these things at his discression, allow the Pres/VP to entertain the turnchat attendies with some more 'fun' aspects (though the DM aspects are perhaps the most VITAL), and hopefully make turnchats shorter.

All things that could use work on IMO.

[Aidun]

Concerning the judges, let us use this procedure:

The court creates an nomination thread. The nomination will be closed after three days, then the President chooses one from the list and appoints this person to judge.

Another option is that the members of the cabinet and the president vote on the candidates, the candidate that gets most of the votes us appointed.

Because the government is in most cases quite diverse, no political ideology can infect the justicial power through it.

In both cases, the court must be given the right to veto the approval to keep it's independence from the executive power. This is because there is also a second scenario: the govenment approves judges that are friendly towards them and not objective anymore, thus making the judicial power lame. This will alos cause unfair trials, etc.

Aidun

[Aidun]

I propose this stucture for the Domestc Ministry:

1 DM
2 Deputy Ministers for cityplanning and public works
3 Provincial Governors.

The DM can be given the power to execute the orders of his deputy ministers and should be given to power to veto them. This makes the task of the DM, which seems now to become heavier and heavier, easier.
The deputy ministers coordinate the orders of the PG's/RG's/RA's and present them to the DM.

The deputy ministers should be elected officials, so that they are responsible for their functioning and not the DM. The Senate should be given the right to impeach the deputy ministers if they do not comply to their task: they don't present their orders or too late. The DM should be held responsible for any DECISION that is made on cityplanning and public works.

Aidun

[Kuciwalker]

We need a Jester.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by skywalker
We need a Jester.

but you can only be elected twice in a row...