Announcement

**Panag** · January 2, 2003, 18:30

hi ,

fighting for freedom , dying for liberty

free the oppressed

have a nice day

**Mr Mayor** · January 2, 2003, 18:36

Aplause from the crowds..... a liberation army??? or just a protest?

Lets hear it for panag!

Lets Hear it for freedom!

**Kuciwalker** · January 2, 2003, 19:20

What was the ruling about abstentions and everything? Do they count for the two-thirds.

Also, YES actually won by two votes. I have to vote by posting because it doesn't let me vote.

I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed!

19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

**Kloreep** · January 2, 2003, 20:04

Originally posted by skywalker
What was the ruling about abstentions and everything? Do they count for the two-thirds.

Abstentions are thrown out for all purposes except meeting quorum.

Also, YES actually won by two votes. I have to vote by posting because it doesn't let me vote.

I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed!

19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

Err... 19+17=36.

19/36= ~53%

**WhiteBandit** · January 2, 2003, 20:41

The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens.

Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this.

It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead?

Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

**Thud** · January 2, 2003, 21:11

WhiteBandit, earlier today I was myself considering these very points. I thought about the current moral tests our nation is currently facing, and failing. Indeed, if I was not such a strong supporter of the DIA, I would've already started a party based on moral issues.

As it is, I think I am going to create an umbrella non-party organization on moral issues, including war, slavery, and trout-slapping.

I think it has been clarified that the vote passed by less than 2\3rds. Even if the President fails to veto, a modified version of the bill will be introduced by this organization, bringing about moderate change directed at the goal of emancipation while making economic sense.

**Hot Mustard** · January 2, 2003, 21:31

Originally posted by WhiteBandit
The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens.

Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this.

It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead?

Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

WhiteBandit, I understand what you're saying, but let's be honest - no one is going to support a all-moral movement to stop all crimes against humanity. I know - I've tried to fight that battle before here and lost.

So you might say we're setting our sights on a more attainable goal - abolishing slavery.

No, we are not valueing foreign citizens over native citizens. We are saying that UNPAID foreign slaves deserve priority over PAID national workers in being assimilated into cities.

**Arnelos** · January 2, 2003, 23:41

Originally posted by Thud
I think it has been clarified that the vote passed by less than 2\3rds. Even if the President fails to veto, a modified version of the bill will be introduced by this organization, bringing about moderate change directed at the goal of emancipation while making economic sense.

Thud, my friend...

You have too little faith in us

Discussion of a cabinet veto of this bill started almost as soon as it passed. A cabinet vote was already ongoing while you posted the above

The results of that vote are about to be posted by myself.

EDIT: Posted. Thud, my friend... Contrary to popular belief, we do have a backbone.

**Arnelos** · January 3, 2003, 00:01

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Arnelos is DIA is it not?

Yes, I am. A point which has been sufficiently made by Spiffor and my joint work on this veto (and thanks to yourself and panag for voting for it as well).

Does the DIA have a stance?

I haven't seen a single member of the DIA come out in favor of slavery. While the abolition of slavery didn't make it onto the party's platform for the term, you certainly can't now deny that we haven't made a stand on the issue...

Can Parties become relevant?

They are most relevant when they make a stand on an issue and others who are not affiliated with them come to agree. This was always the secret the tiny Hawk Party's success and where the DIA has been successful, this has also been the case. Independents rule Apolytonia, but the parties can and have been relevant throughout Apolytonian history as founts for opposing policy options and the defense of them. This remains the case.

**Thud** · January 3, 2003, 00:06

Lol. I suspected as much, but I always have to make a dramatic show. Three millenia was starting to show, have to keep up appearences and all.

And heck, we have a world war on our hands, I'm glad our cabinet has proved they have a backbone.

I think that the Senate will agree that you guys made the right choice on this one. And your justification is unassailable. Still, skywalker will try to assail it

Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

Of course, the Abolitionist Front would like to influence you to take a pro-emancipation stance if at all possible.

**Arnelos** · January 3, 2003, 00:25

Originally posted by Thud
Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

The Domestic Minister must indeed create such a policy. I believe he both requested for this veto and voted in favor of it so that he may do just such a thing.

That said, I agree with E_T's concern that a more thorough plan (looking at the monetary and working details of numbers of each type of worker and what it will mean) is necessary to decide what actually should be done.

I'm sure there are some talented people willing to comment on that one

**lmtoops** · January 3, 2003, 00:46

Originally posted by skywalker
I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed!

19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

Note to self: do not vote skywalker to any position requiring basic math.

Just had to bust on you...giving you a hard time.

**Panag** · January 3, 2003, 01:42

Originally posted by Thud

Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

hi ,

and by doing so they shall only slow things down , if they have some brains they shall indeed realize the fact that the veto is needed and its going to be a benefit to us

have a nice day

panag >

anyone else wants to post a bill

no-one , good

little guy stands up in the back of the senate "but Arnelos , we can not , ............." , little guy gets hit with bananapeels from panag and remains silent

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