Senate Foreign Affairs Cmte.: Buy Steam Power (or Communism) now or later?

[Arnelos]

CURRENT DEALS FOR STEAM POWER

Germany: PEACE renegotiation + 101 LPT + 8 L + our WM (2028 L)
Rome: PEACE renegotiation + 105 LPT + 1 L + our WM (2101 L)
Japan: PEACE renegotiation + 107 LPT + 5 L + our WM (2145 L)
England: 120 LPT + 5 L + our WM (2405 L)
Japan: 126 LPT + 15 L + our WM (2535 L)
Rome: 127 LPT + 16 L + our WM (2556 L)
Germany: 130 LPT + 16 L + our WM (2616 L)

(note: England's peace renegotiation is next turn. Also, Greece tends to give us better prices and does not currently have Steam Power. We can always wait until they buy it and hopefully give us a better price.)

CURRENT DEALS FOR COMMUNISM

Greece: PEACE renegotiation + Dyes renegotiation + 64 LPT + 15 L + our WM (1295 L)
Greece: Dyes renegotiation + 79 LPT + 4 L + our WM (1564 L)
Germany: PEACE renegotiation + 94 LPT + 10 L + our WM (1890 L)
Rome: PEACE renegotiation + 98 LPT + 3 L + our WM (1963 L)
Japan: PEACE renegotiation + 100 LPT + 7 L + our WM (2007 L)
Greece: 110 LPT + 6 L + our WM (2206 L)
England: 112 LPT + 9 L + our WM (2249 L)
Japan: 118 LPT + 13 L + our WM (2373 L)
Rome: 119 LPT + 14 L + our WM (2394 L)
Germany: 122 LPT + 17 L (2457 L)

(note: England's peace renegotiation is not until next turn.)

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POSSIBLE PLANS:

PLAN A: Buy Steam Power for ~100 LPT and immediately start research on Electricity (then techwhore Electricity if we can), followed by Replaceable Parts. Wait for Electricity to make the trade for Communism and any other AI techs.

PLAN B: Buy Steam Power for ~100 LPT and see if we can give it to Greece in return for a reduced price on Communism. Following this, immediately start research on Electricity (then techwhore Electricity if we can), followd by Replaceable Parts.

PLAN C: Continue our 4-turn research toward Sanitation and attempt to Techwhore Sanitation in return for Steam Engine, Communism, and any other techs the AI has discovered. THEN work on Electricity or another tech (depending on what the situation looks like by then).

NOTE: while checking renegotiations is not a violation of the "play ahead rule", actually checking the feasibility of Plan B (which requires the buying of a tech from one civ and selling it to another) WOULD be playing ahead (at least in my opinion) and so we'll just have to figure whether it's worth the risk w/o getting to check it out. If someone from the Court (or another likewise placed) wants to clarify that this is permissible, then and only then can we do that.

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So do we buy Steam Power (or Communism) now or later?

[Spiffor]

Waiting for sanitation might be worth the risk. If we discover it before the AI (that is the risk), it could lower the price of both techs we'd buy, and bring us a good amount of cash from other Civs.
I say we wait.

[E_T]

About 100LPT is 1800 Lytons cold hard cash!

We got the deal with India for 210L & Medicine & WM for Nat & WM, why should we spend that much money for steam power, which wasn't as much of a priority last week as Nationalism & Medicine was.

We have already spent 1 turn with Sanitation, we'll lose beakers if we change now. IF for some reason we don't get Sanitation before the AI, we can still get started on RR and have the price drop through our own means of research.

Also, going for replaceable parts before we get Industrialization and factories is kind of wasteful. We'll have a larger upgrade bill for the near future AND longer build TOC's from the change to Infantry. Build the units at a lower shield cost and then upgrade for relatively cheaply. The same with Cannons & Artillary.

As for using the Peace Renegotiations for buying leverage, ALL of the current treaties that DO NOT have any LPT or Lux/Resource attached to them, thereby they can "lapse" and become normal, to be renegotiate at OUR timing. Germany is one that we will NEED to renegotiate and either let it go for no LPT/Lux or be ready to fire the very first shot in 20 turns when it comes up again.

Go with Plan C

E_T

[Shiber]

I think we should continue researching Sanitation in hope to get it first. Although Steam Power costs 33% more than Sanitation does, Steam Power is now owned by several civs while if we research Sanitation first, we'd be the only civ to have it. This has a tremendous effect on the price of techs, so I think we'll be able to exchange Sanitation and some cash for Steam Power with one civ, Sanitation and some cash for Communism with another civ and then whore Sanitation around to the rest of the large civs to recover what we've paid for Steam Power and Communism (or perhaps even make a profit).

IMHO Greece is broke (which explains why it didn't, or more likely couldn't buy Steam Power) so we should not rely on the possibility that we could recover some of the price of Steam Power by selling it to Greece.

[notyoueither]

Why would we ever want to buy Communism, except as a freebie given to us later to help an ailing civ?

Buy it if you need it. Don't need it? Don't buy it.

[Shiber]

Communism gives us Police Stations, which act like a second courthouse. IMHO they're very useful improvements.
Of course, if we realize that we can't get both Steam and Com. and we have to choose between the two, we'll take Steam.

[civman2000]

If someone from the Court (or another likewise placed) wants to clarify that this is permissible, then and only then can we do that.

I'm not in the court, but i remember that many months ago, near the beginning of the game, a consensus was reached that actually making trades is playing ahead (there wasn't a big debate but everyone pretty much agreed)

[Panzer32]

Interesting note: seems like Germany really wants to renegotiate peace. Maybe there's been an intel leek of our planned conquest?

[Aggie]

I like plan C, since it is almost certain we will get to Sanitation first. A personally agree with NYE that communism should be recieved as a gift, but should not be a priority. We can be sure than given an equal start(and we were with Sanitations, we can easily out research them). Edited to change B to C inmy plan preference(I meant to put c this morning but acidently put B)
Aggie

[Shiber]

IMHO we should not try to get Communism at the moment. Noone is talking about switching to Communism, and there's a long queue of improvements that we have to complete before we should start building Police Stations. By the time we'll need the ability to build Police Stations we'll be able to get it from Germany in the surrender agreement.
As for what to research, don't switch or we'll lose a lot of beakers.

[E_T]

Originally posted by Shiber
IMHO we should not try to get Communism at the moment. Noone is talking about switching to Communism, and there's a long queue of improvements that we have to complete before we should start building Police Stations. By the time we'll need the ability to build Police Stations we'll be able to get it from Germany in the surrender agreement.
As for what to research, don't switch or we'll lose a lot of beakers.

I do beg to differ with you on the effectiveness of the Police Station. For one thing, they would allow us to grow to our maxamum size and still be as productive as we can be. They are very effective, especially after a Factory and some form of Power plant is installed, the Waste reduction is great, especially coupled with WLKD's.

They also combat War Weariness very effectively. Yes, there are a few other improvements that I would build before a Police station, but as with everything else, it would all depend on the current status of any one city.

E_T

[Shiber]

E_T, I'm sorry if my words were misleading. I think Police Stations are very useful, doubling as a second courthouse and an improvement that combats war weariness, but what I meant was that before we start building Police Stations we gotta finish some universities, banks, hospitals and possibly colloseums in some cities (if we want to retain WLTKD for a little longer after a hospital is built).
To sum up, Police Stations are important but not urgent. That said, it's best to wait for a better deal for Communism (such as getting it through surrender terms) than to rush for it now.

[E_T]

I agree with that, but some of the outlying provences would have great benifits from the reduced Corruption & Waste.

As for Hospitals & Coloseums, it is the official DM policy (with our warlike nature) that the cities will have the coloseums built before they will be allowed to grow beyond size 12 (or right afterwards). This will help to insure that we have as full of a happiness base as possible to combat any future WW and/or loss of Imported Luxuries, while they are over size 12.

E_T

[Panag]

hi ,

we could sell sanitation if they have money or trade with it , we should get police stations , they shall make it easier to build other buildings , .....

have a nice day

[Kloreep]

Plan C