The Court of Apolytonia is in Session: Case 5

[jdjdjd]

I have a question on my client's behalf to the Court when you are ready.

[E_T]

My question is mostly directed towards the position taken by jdjdjd in this quote:

Originally posted by jdjdjd
And perhaps the reason more cases like this have not gone to the Court is because many people do not believe the Court is the proper forum for such disagreements. How many lawsuits were filed after the so called "revolution" attempted by UberKrux? Just one, and that only had to do with the validity of the poll. No one in that thread, despite the accusations, insults, and damning statements that flew back and forth, filed a lawsuit with the Court. In the famous Sir Ralph/Spiffor thread debating builder v. conqueror philosophy; neither man filed a claim with the Court depiste the accusations and insults that were exchanged there.

Finally, yes it is a shame that a new member did decide to quit his citizenship. But, how committed was he, if he did not survive one thread? I remember my famous Treatise Against Case Pink thread where I was ripped apart by Sir Ralph and others for disagreeing with that plan. Despite that, I continued on in the game.

In these threads that you speak of, were there any accusations of cheating and/or other forms of impropriety with any of the games' saves? Or where these just "regular" flamefests?

Because your are citing them as part of your argument, could you provide a link to these threads, for the general knowledge of the current DG players?

That's my currently my questions.

I would like to read a statement, if the court will allow me to.

E_T

[Sheik]

jdjdjd, you are free to post your question. The court will not answer the question right away and may not answer (depends on what the other justices think, we probably will need talk first). If you would like to ask the question by PM you can do that also.

[Sheik]

E_T please send a copy of the statement to either me or notyoueither and we will then grant you permission to post it.

[Reddawg]

I wish to clear something up.

There must be a difference drawn between thinking someone may have cheated, and saying "you cheated." At the time of the incident, it appeared to me that the figures posted in the thread were ones which could only be obtained through means not allowed by the rules of the game. However it became evident afterwards that Mr. Orange had not in fact OBTAINED these figures, but "DERIVED" them, a.k.a. "ESTIMATED" them. Herein lied the difficulty in our exchange. I still hold, and will always hold, that his figures are highly inaccurate. However, now that it has been shown to be estimates, it is wholly legal and not at all cheating.

That's all I have to say.

[E_T]

I have a Question of Mr. Orange

We just finished a War with France and have a precise knowledge of what their actual Force Structure was.

Could Mr. Orange provide an estimate using his MilCalc, based on the Prewar Saves, of what France's Estimated Force Structure was. This way, we can compare it to the actual figures and get a "feel" for the accruacy (or lack there of) of his methods of estamation.

E_T

[jdjdjd]

E_T,

I searched for both threads, and did come up with one of them. I'm sorry I did not do that when I first posted, please excuse the oversight.

The Revolution Thread is here .
But this should be enough for your purposes.

The exchange in this thread was not exactly on point with this case, however, I think you will see the level of accusations, insinuations, etc., that went on there.

Thank you for your interest in the case, and for asking for the links.

[jdjdjd]

Sheik,

My question to the Court, is this:

What exactly will be the consequences to my client should he lose?

There is nothing in the Code of Laws addressing such things. In all fairness to my client, and for us to properly continue to prepare for the defense of the case, we need to know any possible consequences would be.

I ask here and not in private, because I am sure that Mr. Orange and other citizens of this Democracy Game would like to know.

Thank you.

[jdjdjd]

To E_T and the Court,

While I am also intrigued as to whether Mr. Orange's MiCalc would be accurate as E_T mentions, I do not think we should hold this case up any longer than we have to.

My apologies E_T, its just that the case has already been slowed due to scheduling conflicts. I wish to free Reddawg from the spectre of this case at the earliest possible time.

Thank you to all for hearing out my objection.

Originally posted by E_T
I have a Question of Mr. Orange

We just finished a War with France and have a precise knowledge of what their actual Force Structure was.

Could Mr. Orange provide an estimate using his MilCalc, based on the Prewar Saves, of what France's Estimated Force Structure was. This way, we can compare it to the actual figures and get a "feel" for the accruacy (or lack there of) of his methods of estamation.

E_T

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by E_T
I have a Question of Mr. Orange

We just finished a War with France and have a precise knowledge of what their actual Force Structure was.

Could Mr. Orange provide an estimate using his MilCalc, based on the Prewar Saves, of what France's Estimated Force Structure was. This way, we can compare it to the actual figures and get a "feel" for the accruacy (or lack there of) of his methods of estamation.

E_T

This one is going too far. Please desist in this line of questioning.

The merits of the MilCalc are not really an issue. Mr. Orange may PM me if he disagrees.

Mr. Orange, please ignore that question. jdjdjd has already avoided it.

I would hope that Mr. Orange would resume his participation in the game. Then the discussion of the MilCalc and its results could most properly occur in threads devoted to that topic.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by jdjdjd
Sheik,

My question to the Court, is this:

What exactly will be the consequences to my client should he lose?

There is nothing in the Code of Laws addressing such things. In all fairness to my client, and for us to properly continue to prepare for the defense of the case, we need to know any possible consequences would be.

I ask here and not in private, because I am sure that Mr. Orange and other citizens of this Democracy Game would like to know.

Thank you.

The Court has already discussed this. It has been decided that the consequences for actions of a citizen or Minister subject to a complaint could range from:

1. Nothing. No action taken beyond the ruling of the Court.

2. Censure. A statement of condemnation from the Court based on the public behaviour of a Minister. Censure could also be a result for private citizens in some cases.

3. Impeachment. In the most severe cases of misconduct the Court may deem that action pursuant to Amendment V may be appropriate and required. I emphasise the words 'severe cases of misconduct' and note that I am speaking in a general manner and not indicating any leanings of the Court as of this point in time regarding this case.

[E_T]

Sheik wrote on 09-11-2002 21:52:
You may post your statement in this form. If you wish to make changes please PM me with the changes before posting the new version. Please state at the start of the thread that you where given permission by the court to post your statement (this way other judges besides me and NYE know you got permission and so that the public knows you recieved permission).

My statement:

I started with the CivIII DG about the middle of Term III. I had then ran (unsuccessfully) for the Term IV MoIE office. I was later asked my FAM Togas to be part of his team, as Deputy Foreign Minister for Trade during Term IV. I am now MoCP for Term V and will be running for DM of Term VI.

During my time as a member of the government of Apolytonia, I have made every effort, in my public postings, to keep in mind that I AM a member of the government and not only would our current members be reading my postings, but some possible future member might also read them. It might seem a bit restrained to some, but it could always be looked at as, that what I say would be the overall policies and attitudes of the particular offices and as the government as a whole. Yes, there have been (and will continue to be) threads that would allow me to have some fun and hopefully, make people also have some fun. In these places, it’s more of a personal than professional level.

As for the validity and accuracy of Mr. Orange’s MilCalc and the methods that he has derived his figures from, I have used the same type of estimations in my Wonder Race Reports. I have fairly accurately predicted the time frame of two Wonders, STC & JSB (I missed the fact that Nottingham was on the coast and could complete NV). I had also used this method, just before we used a GL for SC to predict how close Moscow was to completing it ahead of us.

When I had first learned of the MilCalc, I hadn’t the time to investigate it any further. I didn’t understand what he was showing and couldn’t spare the time to do any further research, so I had ignored that thread. I had not known of the issues that MoE Reddawg had presented until after the Court had posted this case. After reading the full thread at that time, I was very glad that someone hadn’t made the same accusations against me with my Wonder Race calculations. I realize now that Mr. Orange had most likely invested a large sum of his own personal time, to both develop this tool and to implement it within our game. I commend him on his achievement and time that he has invested in it.

With that all said, I hope that Mr. Orange will stay with the DG and provide us with expertise and intuition for our added benefit. It might be prudent for him to give a small tutorial and/or make sure that he states that the MilCalc IS an estimation and might not be accurate. That is, if he decides to stay with us and post any information from this tool. I hope that he will be able to provide us with vital information and maybe even increase his participation in our game in the future, no matter what the final outcome will be in this court case. I also further hope that Mr. Orange & MoE Reddawg can come to some form of agreement and put this case to rest.

E_T

[notyoueither]

Space reserved.

[notyoueither]

This hearing is now closed to the public.

Due to the number of arguments and statements posted by those not directly involved, it remains open for Mr. Orange and jdjdjd to post closing arguments. Mr. Orange and jdjdjd have instructions from me in this regard.

Mr. Orange would be first, jdjdjd second. jdjdjd may post his closing regardless after 12 noon EST on the 12th and prior to me officially closing the hearing.

[notyoueither]

Space reserved.