Raising the Science Slider

[Shiber]

We need to weigh down our options and decide: should we raise the science slider to 30% (at least until Democracy is discovered) or not?
I have made this list of pros and cons. If I've missed anything or got some of the figures awfully wrong, please correct me.

Pros

• We will get Democracy in 16 turns, which is 24 turns faster, thus we'll be able to enjoy the benefits of Democracy 21 turns earlier, assuming that we'll switch to Democracy immediately after the GA is over.
• I am positive that at this rate of research, and considering the normal AI research patterns, we will be the first to discover Democracy and get to whore it around.

Cons

• This is gonna cost us a grand total of ~3,100 Lytons! Remember that 4 Lytons equal one shield when rushing, so 3,100 Lytons equals rushing nearly 15 1/3-built courthouses, or nearly 12 1/3-built marketplaces. Moving all that money from economy and production to science will cause a significant loss in production and delaying in the completion of important city improvements and infrastructure.
• We can't count on being able to cover for our expenditures by whoring Democracy after we discover it. We don't know what's gonna happen in 16 turns, and by the time we finish researching Democracy all the rich civs will become broke and won't be able to pay a significant amount of cash for Democracy. We could end up making a very small portion of our investment back.

Why 30%?
Why 30% and not 20% or 40%, you ask? There's a good point to that. Our glorious Golden Age has begun in 800 AD. We still have 18 turns of GA to go if I'm not mistaken. At 30% we will finish researching Democracy in 16 turns. Since we are not going to switch during the GA (why waste a turn of GA in anarchy?), a rate of 30% will get us Democracy nearly in time. To compare, 40% will get us Democracy in 12 turns, but we'll burn 6 turns just waiting for the GA to end before we can switch to Democracy. 20% will give us Democracy in 25 turns, which is too late for my taste and I expect that you'll agree.

My own opinion?
As of now I'd like to refrain from stating a clear opinion on this matter. I'd prefer to cast my vote after the issue was discussed extensively. I'm sure you can all think of many reasons why we should or should not do this and I'm waiting to hear everyone's points first.

If you make any additional points in favor or against that I haven't listed in here I will add them to this list for everyone's convenience.
Alright people, let's discuss!

[joncnunn]

Actually, unless the budget is too tight, I'd recommend raising it to 50%.

Finishing Democracy before our Golden Age ends is NOT a waste. The quicker Democracy is researched, the quicker we can start resarching the next tech.

I'd recommend an Industrial Age tech next if possible and in a resonable time frame otherwise Free Aristray for further tech-whoring.

[Shiber]

IMHO it is a waste. I don't see any point in raising the sci slider even further in order to start researching the next tech earlier because by the time we finish researching Democracy, the other major powers will already have most of the next techs in the tree and then it'll be cheaper to buy the next techs than to research them.
That, unless we research Free Artistry first for its techwhoring potential, but if we want to build Shakespeare's Theater we'll have to delay whoring Free Artistry to give us a headstart.

[E_T]

Just a correction, we got the GA in 800AD, not 790AD (we were SO disappointed, the one Swordsman was in unroaded Jungle and we had to wait for him to move to attack him). So we have 18 turns (including 820) of the GA left.

I did try to have MrWIA stop the turnchat in 810, so that we could debate this issue and try to take full advantage of the GA's benifits.

E_T

[Shiber]

Thanks. I corrected it and updated the top post.

[joncnunn]

Shiber, the delay in techwhoring Free Artistary after researching is acceptable. If we go at 50% reserach for Democracy now and then 50% for Free Artistary by that time FA is researched, the AIs will have finished reseraching the last required Middage Age techs for us so we can start researching an industrial one without missing a beat.

A Golden Age is also for fast science research.

The main questions I have is for the Economic Minister to check to see if placing this much in science would post pone the long list of improvements needing to be built quickly. (But perhaps that list could be trimmed down as well with the FP so close to completlion)

[Togas]

I'm in strong support of a 50% science rating. At this setting we still would make 231gpt and we'd get technology at a respectable rate. Democracy would arrive in 10 turns.

We can now become self-sufficient in our research, keep up with the other nations of the world and stop paying them hundreds of gold to research for us. We can even start making money by selling our own techs.

No reason for only a 30% science rate. Let's take advantage of our Golden Age's research boost to get ahead in another tech after we get Democracy.

--Togas

[Shiber]

Keep in mind that using the GA to increase science output comes at the expense of using it to increase economic output. A science rate of 50% will seriously limit our economy. Our empire is fast growing but we must make sure that our income is growing accordingly to support the need for additional courthouses AND libraries.

[joncnunn]

With the FP only 12 turns from completion, the need for Court Houses is a lot less than it would be otherwise.

A 231 Gold Per Turn surplus is plenty to rush build Libaries over the next 10 turns.

[Nimitz]

I support increasing our science all we can do as long as it doesn't hurt long term growth.

[Shiber]

Maybe we could find a settlement. How about setting the science slider to 30% or 40% but building and rushing lots of libraries to compensate? The builders will be happy, the researchers will be happy and the culture freaks will be happy (we're all on bannanabis today).

[zeit]

- A compromise won't be too hard to reach- after all, sceince is ultimately tied to commerece output- courthouses benefit science as well as income. In the long run, Techs boost our economy- it would be great if we get a headstart on industrial techs, both in terms of saving money buying it, whoring it around, and getting the boost from the available improvements.
I support raising the slider to 40%, this would reflect our situation best- we are deep into infrastrcutual development, and need dough badly and we are on the 1st row on science. This, coupled with no immediate threat that requirs unit upgrades and war production, and a GA is a great time to show the world that our scientist enjoy the government's support.

[joncnunn]

Myself, I was going to propose 50% + switching the following builds from Court House to Market Place and rushing them when the Forbiden Palace is one turn away from compeltion:

Antioch
Ghengistown
Wilsbury
Bacteria
Susa

and switching Taurus to Libary and rushing that as part of a flip off Oxford.

This may result in similar money & science post Forbiden Palace to 40% science + libaries in all those cities plan.

I do note that 40% research currently only delays Democracy two turns and would give us Democracy the same turn that the Forbiden Palace is complete so we would have an accurate estimate of the time it takes to reserach FA.

Perhaps there could be an unoffical poll on the science slider?

(Edit: Muncie removed from the list : It has a Market Place already. Arbula removed, already has several culutral improvements.)

[Togas]

We don't need a settlement. Is there someone out there who can give me a compelling reason why we can't get by on 231gpt?? We've never had an income that high in our history. What ever happened to just letting our cities build structures and units? Why does everything have to be rushed at 4x the cost?

Yes, I know that after the GA things will change, we can reconsider if we need to get more tax income, but once our corruption is gone due to the FP being built, I feel we can let our corruption-reduced cities actually build things and rush build a whole lot less of our structures.

I'm exhausted from having to always beg and bribe other civs for their knowledge. We're constantly giving away hundreds of gold to our neighbors. I'd like to see our nation become a tech leader and start becoming the one that sells the tech. We've already made the Lost Civs reliant upon us for tech and bankrupted them in the process. With a Tech advantage we can begin to do the same to our neighbors.

--Togas

[Reddawg]

Togas... yeah, I can argue why getting by on 231 would be hard.

We've scraped by the skin of our teeth the last couple of turn chats in order to both develop the nation and the military; with 231 a turn it would not be possible; it was mainly possible because of the huge deals you provided us with.

I'll support something as low as 231, but this of course requires that these huge per/turn deals with other civs remain; without them it is out of the question. I'll have to look into it more.