United Apolytonian Despots (this is NOT a joke!!! Read.)

[UnOrthOdOx]

That's right. This is no joke, no roleplaying, and no clowning around.


Lets face the fact Apolytonia, we are a despotic regime.

Sure, you can claim to yourselves that we are an enlightened peoples, that we are now so much better off.

These are all lies.

In our own past, we have tortured our own peoples to build improvements with little or no care, we have set about enslaving the Americans, French, and Persians, and have burnt a German City to the ground. Again, with little or no care. We have even gone as far as to remove all American presence from the land, laughing as we did it.

Our nation at present is being built on the backs of the slaves that we have acquired from most all our neighbors while we ourselves sit lavishing in our comfortable homes. Slaves that we have taken either through force or barter. They have built your roads, mined the ground, cut down the Jungle, and planted our crops.

Through this we have deceived ourselves into believing that we are becoming such an enlightened peoples. Such are the thoughts of those who are above the other races. How many times have you uttered "yeah, but it is only the AI, we can do it better". Yet while uttering this, we have taken the AI's land, and used the AI's own people to provide for ourselves.

These are not the actions of an enlightened people. These are not the actions of a Democracy, or even a Republic.

We are, like it or not, a despotic regime. Even our most noted peace lovers encourage and propose new ways to enslave our neighbors. Buying new slaves, warring on weakened countries. We have brought ourselves to a point where we now LIVE on our slavery, and our tyranny.

Are we so enlightened? Do we DESERVE Democracy? NO. Are we going to join all our slaves to our cities, setting them free? What, and lose nearly half, if not more, of our entire workforce?

We are despots. We have played this game to win. We have played this game to survive. We have played this game as a tyrannical empire. Allow our Government in game to show what we have become. Allow us at least the honor of not lying to ourselves, OR our neighbors by proudly displaying what we are. Nothing but a bunch of despotic people out to win by any means, not an enlightened group looking out for peoples rights.


Oh, I guess I can make this official like and add a member list. OK, UAD members:

IT DOESNT MATTER, WE BASK IN THE GLORIOUS LEADERSHIP OF OUR DESPOTIC PRESIDENT

[GodKing]

I agree.

[Shiber]

GOD DAMMIT YOU ARE RIGHT!

We have reached the point in the game where our victory is pretty much given. Now that we no longer have to worry about winning the game we can start caring about its other aspects.
However, I'd prefer to work to make Apolytonia an example Democracy rather than return to open Despotism. Who's with me?

[UnOrthOdOx]

That very line of thinking is against the 'model democracy' you would attempt to create.

"Now that is convenient for us, we can start to care what goes on."

Bull!

We chose our course, now let us live with it! NO turning back, no pretending that we can erase our past. It is too late for a model Democracy, so let us be the tyrannical beasts that we have become

[UnOrthOdOx]

Double post.

[Shiber]

It's obvious from the victory condition poll that most of the people around here want a spaceship victory. Do you really want to infect the stars with this filthy behavior?
Let us change our ways! There is still time for atonement.
Make Apolytonia a TRUE Democracy, not just a barbaric nation under the guise of 'enlightment'. Make your children proud!

[Shiber]

UnOrthOdOx, so you're saying that because we did some terrible things in the past we absolutely cannot change?
What about the people who objected wars and pop rushing? Do they deserve to have their dream of becoming a true democracy which finally seems to be in sight taken away from them?
What about our children? Why should they suffer for the sins of their ancestors? Why should we deprive them of their right to live in a CIVILIZED world? Yes, we were ruthless despots and we still are, but why raise the next generation into this horrid system of values as well? Do you want to create another generation of monsters?

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
"Now that is convenient for us, we can start to care what goes on."

Exactly UnOrthOdOx. Every rational person knows that being civilized and humane is important, but not as important as survival. Humans first worry about getting food and only then worry about eating it with a fork and knive. It's only natural UnOrthOdOx.

[Togas]

Hold on. "True" democracy? What exactly does that mean? How about this more realistic model:

We make it a true Democracy for our citizens.

Not unlike great civilizations of the past, we recognize equality for all citizens, and continue to live off the labor of our conquered enemies. Those who would work and fight to destroy us, should justly be put to labor to make this nation great.

Consider how the Romans allowed conquered people to become citizens, or how the Americans had the world's first moden Democracy but had slaves working the fields.

We offer citizenship to all conquered nations, and allow the slaves to buy their way to freedom. Those who are willing and worthy to contribute and participate in the greatness of Apolytonia can be welcome in (including other races).

--Togas

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Shiber
It's obvious from the victory condition poll that most of the people around here want a spaceship victory. Do you really want to infect the stars with this filthy behavior?
Let us change our ways! There is still time for atonement.
Make Apolytonia a TRUE Democracy, not just a barbaric nation under the guise of 'enlightment'. Make your children proud!

As the despot's that we are, We are better than everyone else. This planet, the next, the one after that, it does not matter. It is our duty to show others the err of their ways!

We have spent 4000 + years playing as the Despot. We have ground under our own feet three nations, erradicated one, and soon to erradicate another. Allow us to continue this march! Show this world, and the next, that the Apolytonian way is the only way!

Change our ways? Why? Would this not simply be another despotic way to promote the winning of the game? Democracy is the best government for anything but war. Again, choosing the easiest course to win the game, just like a despotic nation, avoiding conflict while being the largest nation with the most commerce in the best government, now that it is convenient for us. Anything to win the game, the act of a true despot.

Yes, we could 'change our ways' that has been done. People play through a Democratic game all the time. But truly it is only a lie to themselves as they despotically advance the easiest course to win. Let us take up our rightfull place as Despots. Let us show the world our true ways and no longer lie to ourselves or to others!

[Shiber]

That's where you are mistaken. Warmongering is the easiest path to winning the game in our current situation. All the other paths to victory are harder or will take us more time to complete.
Democracy is not the easiest nor the hardest, but certainly the must fulfilling.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Togas
We offer citizenship to all conquered nations, and allow the slaves to buy their way to freedom. Those who are willing and worthy to contribute and participate in the greatness of Apolytonia can be welcome in (including other races).

--Togas

We do? I have not seen ONE slave 'buy' his way to freedom.

And since when have we offered citizenship? Starving down cities till we can manage the populace, then forcing our own ways upon them. No, my friend, this is not an 'offer', this is a demand.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
We do? I have not seen ONE slave 'buy' his way to freedom.

And since when have we offered citizenship? Starving down cities till we can manage the populace, then forcing our own ways upon them. No, my friend, this is not an 'offer', this is a demand.

Didn't we join some workers to one of the Persian cities? They won their freedom.

I for one do not have any desire to achieve a spaceship victory. I think it would take too long. PTW comes out in 11 days and should supposedly allow everyone to upgrade to it and provide us with many new game options.

The sooner we can finish this game and start our second the better in my opinion. I think it should be interesting to discover the thousands of strange new programming errors Firaxis has made with my comrades from Apolytonia. We can rant and curse together.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Shiber
That's where you are mistaken. Warmongering is the easiest path to winning the game in our current situation. All the other paths to victory are harder or will take us more time to complete.
Democracy is not the easiest nor the hardest, but certainly the must fulfilling.

I am sorry, but it is you who are mistaken. To avoid conflict while having the best government, lowest corruption, most science output, and largest military is the easiest, if not the swiftest, path. No AI will dare attack due to the large military, if they do, we would be higher tech and out produce them anyway. It is true that warmongering brought us to this point. Our despotism has brought us to greatness. Now is the time it is easiest to lay down and be peacefull.

Besides, when was the last time you fought a war in the modern era under a despotism? Easy? I would say that it would be a mighty challenge.

[Shiber]

We might as well burn down all our core cities. It would also be a mighty challenge to win after doing something like that.
UnOrthOdOx, do you ever play chess? If so, do you decide at some point that you've sacrificed enough soldiers and sacrifice the queen instead just for the sake of it?

Anyway, I think I'm losing you now. I don't understand what you want anymore, and why. I'm sorry but I'm simply not buying this "we've been pop rushing and we buy slaves so let's switch back to Despotism" bull.

[Shiber]

I've re-read your posts and I still don't get your point. The way I understand it, you're basically saying "we've been despots and fascists so far so let's keep this up." Where the reason in that? Why can't we change into something better, and why should we not want to change?
All nations started out from societies which we call 'backward'. Many nations that have behaved the way we have behaved in the game so far and even worse have changed and are now the world's greatest nations in many terms. Why, if people listened to you then Great Britain, France, Germany and the rest of today's major scientific and cultural superpowers would have still been despotic countries led by tyrants. Do you seriously want that?