Discussion about the New Constitution

[Apocalypse]

First the senate:
You all are overestimating its power. It doesn't have to be used for every freaking little thing. Stop acting crazy and think for a minute.

Next, the removal of elected ministers such as science, economy, and VP.
This is largely the work of myself (not so much the VP). For both term 3 and 4, there are few contested elections. Many of the ministers who ran, such as Uber and myself, only ran because no one else could fill the job. Making less elected positions fixes this problem. Someone who ran for say, foreign minister, and lost who was also a very viable and capable candidate could then be appointed to science, economy, or VP. This makes the whole process very efficient. More elections will be contested (which is more interesting) and people will no longer have to run because no one else is available to fill a position. Of great importance, the VP can now also be appointed. This way more people who can play the game on a regular basis can run for president and then afterwards a loser would be appointed. If anyone still does not like my idea of appointed advisors and VPs, please tell me exactly why and I'll respond with why your fears are invalid.

Finally, term limits. With minsterial shortages they are unneeded. Right now only Togas is approaching the limit. If people really dislike him saying in power for many turns, then you have time to pass an ammendment. At this current time, term limits are not needed. We purposefully left out any mention of limits so they could easily be added if we have a problem with ministers staying in power too long at a later date.

[Sheik]

As a judge and citizen I think that this constitution will serve us well. It is clear and is a definate improvement on the previous version. Good Work

[Meshelic]

Aggie are you planning on being SMC the whole game?

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Meshelic
Aggie are you planning on being SMC the whole game?

Don't forget Trip is going to run for SMC soon. It isn't like Aggie's position will be safe for all time. Not that Aggie wouldn't always be a great SMC, it is just that he will be challegened in the near future.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
First the senate:
You all are overestimating its power. It doesn't have to be used for every freaking little thing. Stop acting crazy and think for a minute.

While, from a practical standpoint, this is true... the constitution you wrote also doesn't PREVENT the Senate from acting on "every freaking little thing" should the time exist in which the Senate could do so...

The fact that they/we DON'T have all the time in the world will mean they/we will have to be choosy about which things to affect, but the constitution you wrote certainly provides very few limits on the enormous range of things that can be affected...

Aside from the changes in semantics, a loosening on the restrictions to any citizen posting an official poll (1) and giving the results of official polls more teeth (2) likely WILL have the affect of increasing the use of official polls (under whatever name they happen to be called ) and that, in turn, likely will change the nature of the membership's role in decision-making.

[Apocalypse]

I'm just reacting to how many people here seem to think it is by far biggest thing the constitution has produced.

[GodKing]

Over 75 posts..... in just a couple of hours.

OK. I don't have the time to read all of them or even the entire document, but from what I see, I am scared.

OK. The document is well written (again, from a quick scan) and covers a lot of ground. But it is also intimidating. I have been around since trip was elected as first prez. If I had been given this to read to understand what was going on, I would have left real fast.

By my scans, I also note that the senate will have to make a whole bunch of "laws" just to get up and running. Aro just came, saw, liked what he saw and started making maps. How likely is someone like aro going to stay around if he has to decifer 30 pages of text to see what he can do and what he cannot. And even if this person does stay, what is to say they will not be so intimidated that the just lurk, and not have the inicitave of starting a "geographical society". Sorry about using you aro as an example without asking first, but I think the point is clear.

We are loosing many of the older people. Many left when the school season started. Others just got tired and faded. Yet we are making it harder for new people to join. Harder for them to start something up that may benifit us all. The game will only get more complex as time goes on. We need not add more complexity to it. We want to bring in more people, not less.

OK. Just an innitial gut reaction. I will digest this document and post later with specifics. Thanks for reading this rambling thing. Time to put orders together.

GK

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Arnelos
While, from a practical standpoint, this is true... the constitution you wrote also doesn't PREVENT the Senate from acting on "every freaking little thing" should the time exist in which the Senate could do so...

The fact that they/we DON'T have all the time in the world will mean they/we will have to be choosy about which things to affect, but the constitution you wrote certainly provides very few limits on the enormous range of things that can be affected...

Aside from the changes in semantics, a loosening on the restrictions to any citizen posting an official poll (1) and giving the results of official polls more teeth (2) likely WILL have the affect of increasing the use of official polls (under whatever name they happen to be called ) and that, in turn, likely will change the nature of the membership's role in decision-making.

As things stand, anybody can start an official poll. We have actually pared that number down.

Secondly, Official polls currently have legal effect, and there are very few limits on what they can mandate.

/Edit. Just pointing these things out.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by GodKing
Over 75 posts..... in just a couple of hours.

OK. I don't have the time to read all of them or even the entire document, but from what I see, I am scared.

OK. The document is well written (again, from a quick scan) and covers a lot of ground. But it is also intimidating. I have been around since trip was elected as first prez. If I had been given this to read to understand what was going on, I would have left real fast.

By my scans, I also note that the senate will have to make a whole bunch of "laws" just to get up and running. Aro just came, saw, liked what he saw and started making maps. How likely is someone like aro going to stay around if he has to decifer 30 pages of text to see what he can do and what he cannot. And even if this person does stay, what is to say they will not be so intimidated that the just lurk, and not have the inicitave of starting a "geographical society". Sorry about using you aro as an example without asking first, but I think the point is clear.

We are loosing many of the older people. Many left when the school season started. Others just got tired and faded. Yet we are making it harder for new people to join. Harder for them to start something up that may benifit us all. The game will only get more complex as time goes on. We need not add more complexity to it. We want to bring in more people, not less.

OK. Just an innitial gut reaction. I will digest this document and post later with specifics. Thanks for reading this rambling thing. Time to put orders together.

GK

You don't need laws for every little thing. I've heard discussion about making laws to create science and economic advisors. That was not part of the constitution. The pres can just appoint those right off the bat. Arg.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GodKing
Over 75 posts..... in just a couple of hours.

OK. I don't have the time to read all of them or even the entire document, but from what I see, I am scared.

OK. The document is well written (again, from a quick scan) and covers a lot of ground. But it is also intimidating. I have been around since trip was elected as first prez. If I had been given this to read to understand what was going on, I would have left real fast.

By my scans, I also note that the senate will have to make a whole bunch of "laws" just to get up and running. Aro just came, saw, liked what he saw and started making maps. How likely is someone like aro going to stay around if he has to decifer 30 pages of text to see what he can do and what he cannot. And even if this person does stay, what is to say they will not be so intimidated that the just lurk, and not have the inicitave of starting a "geographical society". Sorry about using you aro as an example without asking first, but I think the point is clear.

We are loosing many of the older people. Many left when the school season started. Others just got tired and faded. Yet we are making it harder for new people to join. Harder for them to start something up that may benifit us all. The game will only get more complex as time goes on. We need not add more complexity to it. We want to bring in more people, not less.

OK. Just an innitial gut reaction. I will digest this document and post later with specifics. Thanks for reading this rambling thing. Time to put orders together.

GK

Good comments GodKing. I think this should be framed and stand over the entry of the Senate.

The key will be for people to restrain their impulses to make rules against such and such.

But remember, some safe guards are built in.

Article IV. Citizens
1 Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game is considered a citizen.
2 No person shall be denied the right to become a citizen.
3 No citizen shall be denied the right to vote in a poll.
4 A citizen’s vote in a poll is to remain private. No individual with admin powers shall reveal the way a citizen voted.
5 Freedom of speech shall not be denied to all citizens unless it violates Apolyton rules.
6 No one shall be banned permanently from participating in this Democracy Game, excluding those who are permanently banned from Apolyton. Temporary banning is permitted.
7 The right of association into any form of organization shall not be denied.
8 No citizen may be punished in any way without due process of law.
9 A member of the government shall not knowingly hide information or give false information to the citizens.
10 All citizens shall have access to the save.
11 No citizen shall “play ahead� or make any irreversible changes to any of the saved games.

I think the bolded bits cover protecting most of the Aro's of the forum.

[Thud]

I agree. I was thinking there should be a definition of a 'political faction" as in a set number of members required and once the definition was met that faction would be allowed to select a leader.

This Senate Leadership could make quick decisions in situations of emergency such as Great Leaders, etc and have the full backing of their faction constituancy.

Thud, we may be from different parties but we think alike. I second Thud's idea. The Speaker should be elected by a majority of the Senate. I also feel there should be a majority and minority leaders granted some minimal powers.

YES! I had also considered posting this idea, but decided that it would be interpreted as a move to solidify parties, resulting in a extra crispy science minister. I completely agree!

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Thud
resulting in a extra crispy science minister.

Is that with the original herbs and spices?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by notyoueither
OK Unortho. I understand you.

Could you tell me why 25% yes is more desirable than 25% total votes cast? What you are proposing raises the bar for Senate effectiveness dramatically. It would result in a more powerful court and a much more powerful executive.

/Edit. Ghengis nailed it.

That is not what I am exactly meaning. I am saying is that if out of those 25%, the Quorum, the majority are not YEA, then a law should not be passed. And I disagree with Ghengis's assesment of how the Abstains should count toward whatever had majority. That would mean a simple 6 yes, 5 no, and 40 abstain would result in what otherwise was a hotly contested law passing. They should not count as either yes OR no, but should either count as neutral, but effect the outcome, or be thrown out all together and not count toward Quorum. Many vote abstain just to view results, fine, let them watch, but either throw it out all together, or count it in the final tally as a seperate option, don't lump them with something else.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Thud
YES! I had also considered posting this idea, but decided that it would be interpreted as a move to solidify parties, resulting in a extra crispy science minister. I completely agree!

Blah. There can already be a science advisor appointed. There is a very legitimate reason why these elected positions were done away with. This was to lessen the number of people who need to run for a position.

Furthermore, one of the more minor reasons the Science and Economic guys was to make them more unbiased much like judges. This way of recreating the ministry of science is totally screwing with the constitution. I have no idea why you all what to screw yourselves over by messing with our beautiful plans to help this civilization.

[notyoueither]

It should be remembered by those who read the thing that our mandate was to consider each and every aspect of the current Code of Laws and to decide on where they belong.

Towards this end, we considered term limits. It was reported to us that unofficial polling showed them to be unpopular. That swayed me to agree to drop them. They could however be added at any time as an amendment.

Polling standards are another issue. We have created the frame work for a Senate. We have relegated the governance of that body to itself. Hense, some of the existing polling standards belong there. One such would be repolling.

In short, our goal was a coherent document which would allow greater flexibility on flexible issues and to define important things requiring definition.

We worked on this a long while. Many questions arise on first reading. Please read it and reread it if you wish. I believe that many things asked so far are already covered.

I hope that most of you come to see it the way the 4 of us do. It is a document worthy of adoption after a good discussion.

/Edit. Typo.