Use of PM's for Offical Goverment Business

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Apocalypse, I am not all that upset over a worker being built instead of a harbor.

I am upset that an unelected citizen can hijack the Ministry of City Planning and the Foreign Ministry and redo the orders of the elected officials and then pass them off as the official orders.

And get away with it. I thought the CoL was supposed to prevent that from happening. What's the point of having elected offices if any citizen can override the official orders with their own at whim?

[Donegeal]

Being an RA doesn't give you the power to tell the MoCP what to do. RA's are underlings to the CP and the "orders" RA's compile are truly only suggestions to the CP reguarding the cities in the RA's stead. As the CP is the boss, it is ultimately his choice of what to do with the RA's suggestions. He can tell an RA "no, I'm not doing that" but the more he does it the less help he will get.

But lets not get off the subject here. I know that your main complaint is that ET might have changed MoCP orders when there were posted and finalized orders from the CP. I think this matter should be looked into further by the Court.

[Aggie]

Ghengis, I do beleive that this was a case of an unintential error, not outright deception. One thing to remember is being a deputy who finds himself in charge is always an awkward postion. Remember when I was taking over for uber during the french war, there was a great arguement and controversy about the peace terms and peace being made at all. The root problem I suspect was I was acting as SMC but I had no authority legally. Now me and Togas and the president managed to handle it in a dignified and efficient manner, and made things work better because of what happened. I call upon you and ET to do the same. I was also one of the people who pushed for the worker in HIW, mainly becasue we could rush a worker, but there was no way to rush a harbor, since I required 5 upgrades of wc to knight. Perhaps Et defered to my opinion of this because I was elected and could react to the current situation(I don't know, just guessing). Additionally I also was against rushing that harbor at the end of the chat because I felt since the worker had already connected the road, it was best that we build a harbor on uber. Before judgeing ET poorly I just ask that on this issue you give ET the benefit of the doubt. He also was doing 2 jobs at the same time which is quite difficult, so please keep this in mind. Both of you have contributed greatly to this game and I hope we can work together in the future.
Thank you
Aggie

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by donegeal
Being an RA doesn't give you the power to tell the MoCP what to do. RA's are underlings to the CP and the "orders" RA's compile are truly only suggestions to the CP reguarding the cities in the RA's stead. As the CP is the boss, it is ultimately his choice of what to do with the RA's suggestions. He can tell an RA "no, I'm not doing that" but the more he does it the less help he will get.

But lets not get off the subject here. I know that your main complaint is that ET might have changed MoCP orders when there were posted and finalized orders from the CP. I think this matter should be looked into further by the Court.

I gave the orders to GK who was and is the CP.

GK approved them and gave them to ET.

ET changed them.

I pm'd ET to inform him of what I thought was an error. ET told me it was not an error, he just didn't like the orders and changed them.

If ET had been the elected CP I wouldn't have a beef with this issue. He isn't, why does an unelected person have the right to change orders from an RA that were approved and posted by the official elected to the Cp ministry post?

If Donegal and Aggie will explain why orders from elected officials can be overriden by unelected officials I would appreciate it.

He was fully aware as I pm'd him several times and explained it to him. He knew he was changing official orders. After it became clear he was intending to change official orders I informed him that if he did do it after it had been discussed in threads and approved by GK that I would try to have the action addressed by the court and he gave me the impression that he felt the court would have nothing to say about it.

It isn't the result that bothers me, but the fact that someone feels they have the freedom to hijack official ministry orders for their own personal ideas and override the input, discussion, and orders of elected officials. I would never do this. There have been several times when I was at turnthreads and the official playing the game asked me for instructions and I still told them the wishes of the elected official even though I had argued against the very same orders as I feel that undermines the entire concept of a Democracy game.

Yet here someone undermined the orders of TWO ministries and I see many active members blowing it off as though its not important.

Togas made a token protest at having his orders countermanded. Aggie appears to support ET. Donegal even supports ET even after I went through the log and saw how ET told Donegal it was simply a pm agreement when he had already acknowedged my pms that it was an official order approved by GK, the elected official over CP orders.

Anyway, I realize I am being pretty much ignored by the community as a loony for taking a stand on this issue as it appears they view ministers as just advisors and not having authority over their respective areas. I feel strongly that the people elected to a position are considered to be good at that area and the citizens want them and not someone they didn't elect to handle the decisions for that area.

I promised ET I would raise a rucus if he altered official orders without the officials approval and I plan to do just that.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I pm'd ET to inform him of what I thought was an error. ET told me it was not an error, he just didn't like the orders and changed them.

Do you have the copy of the PM where he said he didn't like them and wasn't going to change what he wrote?

Just a note that this is PERCISELY why I started this thread about using PM's. If this would have been done in the forums, then we could quickly solve this problem.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by donegeal


Do you have the copy of the PM where he said he didn't like them and wasn't going to change what he wrote?

Just a note that this is PERCISELY why I started this thread about using PM's. If this would have been done in the forums, then we could quickly solve this problem.

No, that was before I started getting concerned with the direction he was going (I get a LOT of pms- mostly leaderhead related and have to empty my box a lot), at that point I seriously thought that if he was aware I might take the issue to court he would stick with the original orders.

Anyway they are pms and posting their contents is a banishible offense at Apolyton. The rare exceptions are serious threats against you in which case you are supposed to inform a mod and give them permission to access and view your pms.

Holeinwall's primary srategic contribution is its ability to build ships on that coast and thus save us the time of sailing around Abananaba Minor. I guess we'll have to settle for regular galleys.

[nz_upy]

I am in full support in GF's view on this issue. E_T due to his indepedent action's, although supported by Ministers (who were unaware of the situation), and his seemingly disregard for authority and the principles on which this game stands should be punished. In two circumstances as acting CP and FAM he blatantly overrode Ministerial Orders (Ivory and HIW). This should not go without inquiry.

On another note I am concerned about the quality of the Game Reports. They have become nothing more than a list of a few events and a vague explaination of things. eg "Aggie explored with Galleys a bit" (Ocean naming may help here).
If RL restricts the Game Report to the bare minimum so be it but it means that those who arent fully involved in the game arent able to follow what is happening eg. The impending war with France??? Citizens were lost as to why this maybe because they are "out of the loop".

Since I'm in the mood I'll also push for the need for someone to Journal and maybe put into a Tale the great story of our Nation.

It seems to me that since the introduction of Republicanism something has been lost and tension has taken the place of comradarie.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by nz_upy
On another note I am concerned about the quality of the Game Reports. They have become nothing more than a list of a few events and a vague explaination of things. eg "Aggie explored with Galleys a bit".
If RL restricts the Game Report to the bare minimum so be it but it means that those who arent fully involved in the game arent able to follow what is happening eg. The impending war with France??? Citizens were lost as to why this maybe because they are "out of the loop".

I fully agree. I NEED to know new worker construction trades, and captures. According to the reports posted on this forum we have captured a total of 1 Persian worker, built one, and traded for none in the entire term of OPD. That is sad that we have only gained one worker in an entire term considering the amount of jungle clearing and mine building we have before us.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

I fully agree. I NEED to know new worker construction trades, and captures. According to the reports posted on this forum we have captured a total of 1 Persian worker, built one, and traded for none in the entire term of OPD. That is sad that we have only gained one worker in an entire term considering the amount of jungle clearing and mine building we have before us.

I'll reply on the other issues later. But for now...

Ghengis,
Whaa?

So far this term, the Foreign Ministry bought three workers -- in one turnchat. We've been buying workers like crazy, and I know we've bought at least one or two others besides those three. I'm sorry to say that the reports are wrong on that matter . I don't have a list of how many workers we managed to get, but I'll think about it and see if there was any way I could create one for you -- I understand how important it is to the $-minigame.

-- adaMada

[Donegeal]

Just for everyones information, I have reviewed GodKings official CP orders post for the turnchat/threads from the following years:
380, 430, 440, 490, 530 and 580.

No where on any of these posts are there any orders about building a harbor. The only orders I have been able to find are about moving the city one tile to the SW (which was done) and building a temple there (wihich was also done). There was only one other reference to Hole, and that was to "grow".

There was one questionable orders thread. The orders thread for 440 mentions something about GodKings original orders dissapearing and him having to type them over. It is entirely possible that a deal was agreeded upon by GodKing and Ghengis via PM, was posted with these original orders that somehow dissapearded and subsequentially go forgotten when GodKing retyped the orders.

Please note that I am NOT taking sides on this issue. I only want to see that the game is played democraticly and without cheating.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Wow, this thing sure balooned since I last looked at it.

My own stance on this issue:

GF, E_T,

I don't know what happened, as GF points out, PM's cannot be brought onto the boards, so there would be no proof if anything was taken to court. Even so, there is nothing in the CoL that refers to EITHER RA's or for an assistant taking over for a chat. Basically, according to GK appointing GF in charge of HIW, and E_T in charge of that chat, you both had equal authority to change the orders. This brings up a situation that needs to be addressed, however, be it through an amendment or through a new constitution. I see this becoming a sticky situation...

On the use of PM's. I have never been a minister, so I can't tell you how long this has been going on. I was VP, and basically ran the whole show for a week, however. And, Much like GF, I need my PM box emptied as I average sending and recieving roughly 20/day. Mostly Gazette, some private conversations. During my time as VP, that did jump dramatically, but there were no orders being passed to me in that fashion. All orders should be posted in plain sight in the orders thread. This was a HUGE problem with my first turnthread, as I spent an hour going to the different office threads to print out the respective orders, and it continues to be a problem creating confusion and problems such as these. TurnCHATS are also a source of SOME of this problem. Would the same problem have presented itself in a turnTHREAD had been played, and GK had posted his orders? I think not. Why is it we are relying on people to be PRESENT in the chat to give orders? Why is it that the executives cannot FOLLOW THE WRITTEN ORDERS for the turnchat and only ask for input when something has been left out, overlooked, or is unexpected? People need ONE location to see all orders. Asking for all input inside the chat is to take the game out of the hands of the public and put it into only those who can attend a chat. Follow the written orders FIRST, then get whatever else is needed. What official PM's I DID recieve were of the nature "I edited my orders, make sure you notice this: (insert changed portion)" or, 'please give me your opinion on this order: (instert link)' This is how official PM's should work. Simply making sure someone notices whatever you need their opinion on. MrWIA and I would talk privately reguarding official business, but that was more because we agreed that we spoke as one during our term, and needed to consolidate our views on whatever issue.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

First off I'm not out to crucify ET. I feel this is an issue that has been escalating for some time and has definitely reached unacceptable levels. Citizens began making suggestions in turnchats, then argueing against official orders, then attempting to make their own orders, and now replacing official orders with their own.

This must stop now. This defeats our CoL and the entire system of elected Ministers. I also feel the Minsters have a tad too much power. Currently the President is mere puppethead at the whims and control of the Ministers.

There needs to be a set list of what Deputies can and cannot do as the Ministers have so much power it is virtually impossible for one person to perform all the functions by themselves.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I must admit I am a bit out of touch on what exactly happened this particular time, but as you say GF, the issue of deputies has been brewing for some time as well as the public discussion in chats. My observation is that most of the time deputies are appointed specifically to attend chats and give orders.

My question is WHY? Why should there even NEED to be a representative from any specific office if the orders are already posted in a public thread? Why do we need someone to tell the Pres/VP the orders when they could just as easily print out a copy and read them themselves? What REALLY is the purpose of asking for orders that are already posted during a chat? Seriously, can someone answer that? Why do we not simply carry out the printed oreders, report on what happened, and ask for anything that is ADDITIONAL, or not covered? Why redo the orders during a chat?

Following the written orders would reduce the need for so many deputies, and eliminate much of the problems that arise as a result of chats, likely speeding them up in the process.

Now, occasionally Ministers are out of communication for a length of time and Deputies must take full charge. Perhaps we need a method of public acceptance in such cases? And in the case of RA's, we likely need an amendment to cover that area.

[GodKing]

Due to a variety of issues, I was unable to do the last three (3) sets of orders for my department. No excuses on my part. I did ask for assistance at the last chat I was at (a tuedsay night, run by Apoc) to see if anybody could help me out and do orders for me for the next time. Zeit volunteered. He was to compile any RA requests (GF and donegeal were the only two doing so), review them to make sure they made sence in the overall scheam, post his orders taking into consideration the RA suggestions, and if possible to attend the chat to answer any questions that may arise. By my understanding, Aggie ran that chat and all went well. I did not review these orders.

The next time orders were due, I was unable to do them. E_T had some questions as he was running for CP, and I was in contact with him. I offered him the opportunity as Zeit had to compile, post, and if possible attend the chat to answer any questions. E_T had the full authority of my office to do this work. He could sink or swim on his own ability just like Zeit did. As far as I was conserned, due to my failure to be able to do the orders, this was the second best as it allowed the candidates the oportunity to show their stuff, and to bow out of the race if they couldn't meet the demands of the job. Just wish historyguy would have asked, as I would have gladly given him the opportunity as well.

The third time, I had just replaced my hard drive (3rd one in 6 months....) and could not get civ to work. Knowing that I couldn't make the monday dedline for posting orders, and as E_T had stated that he would be willing to do them again if needed, I asked him to go ahead. One of the bigest factors in asking E_T to do this instead of posting a request for volunteers is that he had about 3 times the number of votes over the other candidates for the CP position, and therefor looked to be the next CP.

OK. A lot of this is perhaps my fault as I did not relay any specific instructions to either Zeit or E_T. Also, as of now about 15 turns have gone by where I have not looked at a save even. My computer is working again, and the last set of term 4 orders I am planning on doing tonight.

In terms of either Zeit or E_T not obaying any of my orders, that would be difficult as I did not give them any. I told each of them that they were on their own to show what they could do (or not do).

Can we let the specifics of this issue rest now. In general terms, people have been asking now for the past 2 months just what role should deputies and substitutes have. This just help examplify this situation. Con. Congress......?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

So what your saying is for the last three weeks I've been typing and designing orders to establish a Western Fleet and they have been pointless.

If it wasn't for the fact that I only had to plan for one city I would most likely shoot GodKing now.

What the heck >bang<

GodKing starts flopping on the floor.

>bang< >bang<

This saltpeter stuff is kinda useful.

I do think the NewCon is an improvement but the alteration of Togas' orders and the issue of not following posted orders need to be addressed.