440 AD Turnthread

[Togas]

I'm surprised that there is little discussion about an alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans.

I'm going to authorize an alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans unless someone can give me a good reason why we shouldn't.

Before the alliance is sealed, we will sell the Americans some useless tech to ensure that they have no gold to bribe a possible (although unlikely) ally.

Once America is cleaned up, the alliance will be over, the Aztecs will be friendlier to us, and there will be less potential threat of their invasion into our domain.

Any issues with this?

--Togas

[joncnunn]

There's the following down sides to an alliance with Germany vs the Aztecs:

1. After we take Washington (and if Chicago falls to the Aztecs that as well) eliminating the common boarder, where do we send our forces too?

2. We would have to stay a Monarchy for the 20 turn war even if we're not using our forces against the Aztec possesions.

3. If we do continue to use the forces, then if we capture core Aztec cities, both us and the Germans end up with a crazy quilt of cities, that both need lots of garrison units for protection, culture to prevent flips, and have heavy amount of waste and corruption. (At least until the Forbidden Palace is built.)

4. If we instead raze core Aztec cities, then the Germans or Greeks move in and take over that area.

Now if we were confident that the Aztecs would previal in an Aztec - German conflict, it might be possible to double cross the Germans by letting German cities fall to the Aztecs and then we move in and capture them from the Aztecs, but I think it's much more likely that the Germans would have the upper hand.

[Bolverk]

I'm a little worried that an alliance with the Aztecs would land us at war with the English. I understand an alliance would not bind us to this, but if they are already at war with the Aztecs, we may make a more tempting target.

Improved relations aside, are there really any advantages to an alliance with the Aztecs?

[Aro]

I support an alliance with the Aztecs, in the Togas' terms, but I think we need to be quick with this, before they finish America... They can do it, IMO.
Togas, any comments about the incense colony?

[Shiber]

An alliance with the Aztecs will improve our relationship with them and improve the chances that they won't declare war on us next, thus sustaining the Pax Apolytonia which we plan to create.

[Togas]

I like the incense colony idea a lot. It makes it available now so that we can use it to aquire Education before the end of the Persian war, and possibly get a higher tech from Persia.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

aztec alliance

yes, ally with the Aztecs... wave your magic wand and let it be done. they will give us money and their WP for it and the Americans can only kick and scream until their other foot is in the grave we helped dig.

[GodKing]

Apoc - CP stuff will be updated this saturday morning. If you wish to use the ugle, hastily produced stuff from last time that I pm'd you (and posted late...), that will work OK. But as you said you are only finishing this turn, can you please not hit END TURN when you are done. That will let me adjust as necessary. Thank you.

Togas and anybody else - Have you considered an aliance with the americans against the aztec? If we let teh aztec take a couple more cities, we can then go to war with them, let them take the amerians and we take them... then when 20 turns are up or the americans are no more (I am not sure on that point, do we still take a hit if our allie is dead?) we make peace. Also, do we take a hit if we sign an aliance and even if we keep the war going, declair war on the americans also?

We have the funds to bribe germany in on our side in this conflict if we decide we need the help and we get in over our heads.

We have lots of options. Lets look at the overall picture and not at the narrow point of just take over the american cities.

NO COLONIES PLEASE. Particularly this one for this little insence. We will loose a worker (Slave) that we desperately need to clear jungle. If we spend a little gold now, we can expand with a temple in 5 turns to have it. My standing orders request any and all temples and courthouses to be purchases, after military needs are met. This can be refined to purchasing one near the incense ASAP, particularly if aggie and you (the other two money spenders) agree. I hate to waste a worker now when at the present rate the insence will be in a city in about 27 turns, without any rush spending.

[Hot Mustard]

RE: Americans
Togas has it dead on - ally w/ the Aztecs, as it will only be for a short time and helps us out in a couple of ways.

RE: Incense
I agree with GodKing - if a temple can help the city expand quickly it would be a waste of a worker.

[Togas]

Colony is the way to go

Waste a worker???

We can (and have) bought workers from other civs for as much as 11g, usually less. They are exceptionally cheap and easy to come by. We can build them with ease and we have The Pyramids to compensate for the loss of population.

Rushing a temple is far more expensive, and it takes more time to get the culture to expand enough to allow us the use of the luxury.

I really need that extra Incense before the end of the Persian war. My current plan is to use it to buy Education and seize a better technology from the Persian with peace.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Re: Colony is the way to go

Originally posted by Togas
Waste a worker???

We can (and have) bought workers from other civs for as much as 11g, usually less. They are exceptionally cheap and easy to come by. We can build them with ease and we have The Pyramids to compensate for the loss of population.

Rushing a temple is far more expensive, and it takes more time to get the culture to expand enough to allow us the use of the luxury.

I really need that extra Incense before the end of the Persian war. My current plan is to use it to buy Education and seize a better technology from the Persian with peace.

--Togas

I've gotta agree with Togas -- we can save LOTS of money (more than the cost of both a Worker and a Temple, probably) by getting another (very new) tech from the Persians (sorry for being vague, but can't recall which it was to save my life), but we can only get that if we pick up education now. Even then, by using the luxury to buy Education, we should save a lot of money on Education as well. As Togas said, Workers are pretty cheep in general -- if we need a replacement badly, the Foreign Ministry could probably make some smaller deal and 'pay' for a new one (assuming Togas is ok with that compromise -- I don't speek for him in this regard) instead of loosing much more money by not connecting the Lux now.

Finally, I think that WhiteBandit has the ultimate decision on this issue, doesn't he? They are his workers, after all...

-- adaMada

[Aggie]

Togas, I support the alliance with the aztecs, it makes good sense.
Aggie

[zeit]

According to a post by wervdon -(http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...1&pagenumber=2), an alliance with the Aztecs would casue us a rep hit, becuase of some bug, if a civ is eliminated and there is an alliance against it, it counts as if the alliance was broken and this will cause us a rep hit, so perhaps we should re-consider this idea?

[Togas]

I reviewed the above thread by wervdon. In that thread, he discovered that if a country he was trading with was eliminated, his trade deal was canceled and the AI considered it as a broken deal.

There's no discussion in that thread, or no evidence posted by anyone, that an alliance against a nation where you both agree to go kill that nation, and you succeed in killing that nation, that you get any rep hit.

Furthermore, E_T has sent me a PM that the Aztecs will sell us Invention for 11gpt (a 20gpt discount) if we go to war with them against America. I'm currently awaiting word on if we can replace invention with Education.

--Togas

[MrWhereItsAt]

I think I will have to lend my support to Togas' idea for the colony. Sorry GodKing, I would like a temple there ASAP also, but I don't see workers as becoming very rare all of a sudden, and anything we can do for techs like Invention is worth it!