Theology Debate

[Arnelos]

donegal, I agree that next GL (or this one if Sistine Chapel doesn't work out) should go toward Leonardo's (first priority... it's just so powerful) or an Army barring that.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Buy it somehow, but do not get peace with Persia. The Pyramids alone will take some time to capture (and hold).

Why not buy it this turn and rush it in Willsbury? 3 units to garrison Willsbury will be enough to brevent a flip for the next 3 turns, which at that point Sistine's will be generating enough Culture to prevent. Aggie is not planning an offinsive over those three turns, then those units can join the rest on a march south.

[Shiber]

IMHO, the next GL should go for an army -> heroic epic, and the next should go for Leo's Workshop, which will give us tremendous advantages, especially while knights and cavalry are the dominant units. Since we can build our UU throughout the entire game, we will be able to rush war chariots at the cost of 80 gold and then upgrade them to knights at the cost of 50 gold - a total cost of 130 gold per knight, which is much better than just rushing a knight for 280 gold. This advantage will become even greater as we gain access to cavalry.

[joncnunn]

Voted "Buy now", but exact preference wasn't listed so stating it here:

Buy now if renegoation can't come up before our Great Leader is in the city we wish to build Sistine Chapel.

[GePap]

If the to-buy option wins, then we certainly can't spy on anyone- and if we spy on anyone, the cost of that operation might mean we can't buy it.

We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel? I would say, hake Persepolis, make peace, get both, Take America- wait 20 turns, take the rest of Persia's homeland. It is not written in stone (If it is, someone point me to the requisite poll) that we must, in this campaign, secure the entire Persian homeland- we can get insence from Chicago, and the Chapel is worth more then 3 spice, for now, specially without the markets to give our own cities a worthwhile happiness boost (spices are more widely distirbuted than insence- so the market for them wil be much weaker).

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by GePap
If the to-buy option wins, then we certainly can't spy on anyone- and if we spy on anyone, the cost of that operation might mean we can't buy it.

We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel? I would say, hake Persepolis, make peace, get both, Take America- wait 20 turns, take the rest of Persia's homeland. It is not written in stone (If it is, someone point me to the requisite poll) that we must, in this campaign, secure the entire Persian homeland- we can get insence from Chicago, and the Chapel is worth more then 3 spice, for now, specially without the markets to give our own cities a worthwhile happiness boost (spices are more widely distirbuted than insence- so the market for them wil be much weaker).

I agree with you, somewhat, but would like to point out this:

We cannot simply take the Pyramids and make peace. They will flip right back because the capitol is likely to flip right next door. We must take all 4 cities down in that little penninsula to ensure we can keep the Pyramids. That will take TOO long. We must either choose Peace NOW for 20 turns, or to take the Pyramids, and the four other cities. Unless you have some plan for prevention of flipping?

We were discussing renegotiating peace with America once upon a time... If we did that, we cannot go attack them for another 20.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by GePap
We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel?

Why must we give up the Persian homeland to get the Pyramids? That makes no sense.

I choose E, all of the above.

[GePap]

What i meant Ghengis, is that we can take Persepolis, make peace, demand theology, and get both the Pyramids and the Chapel (UnOrthO: I on't see why Perseoplis flipping is such a given- Persepolis is the Persians main culture city, we have far more culture than Persia, and if we put a big enough army to crush dissent, then begin to starve and rush a temple, then a lib or cathedral,we could keep it). We don't know how long until others get the chapel- I don't know if we currently have the money needed to buy it outright, so if we really want the chapel, getting it from persia is the quickest way, but I would not support a peace with persia until we got the pyramids. Convoluted, but that it.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Looking closely, you can see Bactra has size 3 culture. It would be putting at least 3 squares of Perseopolis under Cultural pressure. Susa has no culture at the moment, and Tarsas is too far away. So, I would say at a minimum we should take out Bactra as well as Perseopolis to ensure our keeping the Pyramids. That would also give us Incense.

[joncnunn]

The Persian culture already built up inside Persepolis is the major reason why it would flip back if there's another Persian city whose culture overlaps its city radius.

To keep Persepolis, we have to capture or raze all the pennisula.

Any cities we opt to capture rather than raze themselves have to be checked to make sure they don't run the risk of flipping.

[Aggie]

A major cause of flip is previous culture and # squares in radius in enemy territory and # foreign people, now we could perhaps starve it and garrison enough to prevent flip, lets face it a size 1 city might not flip especially one like persopolis since it would grow very very quickly and soon our people would outnumber the persians, at the very least we would need to buy temple there. For the record the war with persia will be over in about 15 turns if my estimates are correct. Of course if we have a serious setback at persolpolis we can just make peace and come back in 20 turns and finish them off. I wouldn't mind if we took susa and bactra though,perhaps I will send all forces there and forgo the northern assault until another time, lest face it, with knights the northern city are just 2 more turns away.
HEY I am editing this to mention an idea, how about I send a secondary force of knights(2 at least depending on production), then we could have those forces to help attack persopolis but they could also if not needed rush toward incense.
Aggie

[=OttomusCeasar=]

As stated by the alien invaders in Independence Day:

NO PEACE.

We must take all of the Persian Homeland our risk angering the Great Banana.

[Togas]

UPDATE

My fantastic Ministry research department (E_T) has reported to me that the most likely city to be in the lead to build the Sistine Chapel is Moscow. This is based on reviewing old saves and checking the progress/construction in each of the candidate cities.

He is currently double-checking his figures to see if a city with a lot more production than Moscow could be beating them in the race.

The price of an embassy (and to spy on Moscow) is only 66g. Well worth the investment, as we need an embassy in Moscow anyway. This glimpse into Moscow on the first turn of the chat will give us a good idea of how close the other civs are to building this wonder.

What if we find out that Moscow is 15+ turns away from construction? Would the people be willing to wait a few more turns to buy Theology? My hunch is that we might be able to trade Chivalry for it in the coming turns, but I cannot say how soon.

I am very reluctant to devote such a large amount of our annual income for the next 20 turns to this debt. We would be guaranteeing our current tax rate (no science) and hampering our economy for the next four turnchats. I will order the expendature if we must, but understand that I am looking for every possible way NOT to spend such a large amount of money on this tech.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Togas,
Agree in full with your post, especially if E_T decides that he thinks there's no one else who can catch up with the Russians.

If we need to blow the next twenty turns to get a wonder that'll help us for the rest of the game, then I'd be fine with that, but if it's possible to avoid it, we should -- too many other opportunities that we'll wind up missing due to a lack of cash.

-- adaMada

[Togas]

I wanted to post the following report from E_T, who has been working on this difficult dilema for The Ministry.

Moscow had 7 pop when it started and built to 8, Rome & Sparta had smaller populations and built up to where they are now. They are started 4 turns after Moscow. Berlin was relatively small, but 4 of it's squares are irrigated flood plain, so they have about as much now as moscow started out with, they also started after Rome & Sparta. Nottingham shouldn't even be trying for a Wonder, it's pathetic at size 6 with little real production and they started after Berlin. If Berlin was the size then as it is now, my bet would be with them, but Moscow had the head start (32 turns total) and the higher overall production through out.

Also, If we cut the Persian Trade route, Berlins production will fall behind. My book is on Moscow and may the Banana help me if I'm wrong.

We're going with the embassy and, hopefully, it will give us some productive information.

--Togas