The GL debate

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
* UnOrthOdOx looks at his watch...

I have a few hours of authority left, I will go and make an OFFICIAL poll, then. And, I will petition MrWIA NOT to use the GL in the next five turns. The only thing that will lose us is the remote possibility of another GL.

There is also the risk that in five turns both wonders are completed. There were other wars and perhaps other civ's GL's out there of which we do not know.

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by notyoueither


I thought it better to discuss than to bush whack by filing a complaint myself. I can do that, right?

I also wanted to gauge opinion on the conduct of those polls that are being presented as being the decision of the people.

I see that I am not alone.

Of course, nye, as always, no offense meant in the heat of the debate....and you know I love a good debate. Perhaps a PM to Aggie setting him straight may have been better, but nothing in the CoL holds you back from presenting this thread.

While you are not alone in wanting the Sistine, as Togas post shows, there is no way we will get Theology until the war with Persia is over, and waiting risks losing a possible GL or allowing some one else to complete either or both Sun Tsu and Sistine.

Aggie did not have to poll, and now he has indicated it is an unofficial poll, and based on the Trevman case it is an acceptable way to make a poll unofficial. The final decision can not be based on it. They could conduct an official poll, but time does not allow that, as UnOrthoDox points out the new Amendment requires they play a turn before the 18th, which leaves tonight. They are not bound by the CoL to do such a poll but they are bound by the CoL to play the turn. Without the poll the decision should be joint by both GK and Aggie as indicated in Togas post above.

I am not sure if there is a valid case to present to the Court at this juncture, you may feel different and have the right to present that case. Only a specific case before the court could allow the court to file an injunction. And as I see it, only a court injunction could prevent this mandated turnchat.

If you do present a case, obviously you could not sit on the case. If you request so, I would also not sit on the case. Leaving Epi, K-man and shiek to review and decide on the injunction and then the case.

[Aggie]

I say either we all agree or we hold it in reserve for 5 turns. I really want the game to go on. If we lose Sun Tsu and sistine, then we use our leader for an army. This is unlikely but possible. The odds are still in our favor it will be there in 5 turns. We will send 4/5 elites into battle in about 3 turns so we have roughly a 1/3 chance of getting a leader this turnchat. But that also means we have 2/3 chance of not. But hopefully me,MWIA and Godking can all agree then we'll do it now.
Aggie

[notyoueither]

I think the issues have clarified themselves.

I would have no problem if the Pres, CP, and SMC agree to use him for whatever purpose they can agree to. I am saying that again so that it does not get lost.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Personally, I see three options:

1. The Ministers decide to use the GL
2. We suspend this chat, and wait the results of the poll. I am sure the court will take into account the circumstances. And if not, they can't impeach us, we already left office.
3. We wait 5 turns to use the leader and risk losing a second one.

PERSONALLY, I only really agree on 2 and 3. This is a decision that should be left to the people, IMO, and I am becomming more convinced that suspending the chat is the way to go.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
1. The Ministers decide to use the GL
2. We suspend this chat, and wait the results of the poll. I am sure the court will take into account the circumstances. And if not, they can't impeach us, we already left office.
3. We wait 5 turns to use the leader and risk losing a second one.

I only agree with 1 and 2.

3 completely goes against the will of the people IMO and I think there would be a lot of ill will going around if Ramses was sat on for 5 turns.

[notyoueither]

Alright, but a valid official poll should be preceeded by a lengthy discussion thread where the options for the poll emerge. Trying to jump ahead to the poll prior to discussion has usually resulted in the problems. In that light, to have a valid poll consumes at least 5 or 6 days.

2 or 3 days for discussion, then 3 days for the poll. I agree that the GL is a very important issue. The point of this thread was to discuss how the decision to use him should be reached (or not).

I trust the people we elected to play the game. I do not require an official poll on this for myself. That's why I did not start one. I did start a thread to correct an error I saw occurring regarding polling and standards.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Alright, but a valid official poll should be preceeded by a lengthy discussion thread where the options for the poll emerge. Trying to jump ahead to the poll prior to discussion has usually resulted in the problems. In that light, to have a valid poll consumes at least 5 or 6 days.

2 or 3 days for discussion, then 3 days for the poll. I agree that the GL is a very important issue. The point of this thread was to discuss how the decision to use him should be reached (or not).

I trust the people we elected to play the game. I do not require an official poll on this for myself. That's why I did not start one. I did start a thread to correct an error I saw occurring regarding polling and standards.

I am sorry, that is wrong.

The discussion is only a recommendation, NOT a requirement.

THERE ARE SEVERAL threads on this issue. Discussion is out there, and has been since we got Ramses. 3 days should suffice for the ACTUAL poll.

[notyoueither]

I don't necessarily want to keep this thread going, but...

I said 'should', not must. It is certainly possible that the court could invalidate a poll based on lack of discussion leading to flawed questions.

Those who wish to put up a poll are strongly recommended to first discuss the issue in another thread, and bounce around possible options for voting. If someone feels that a poll could have been better made as a 'grouping' poll, or a 'yes/no' poll, then it may be deemed invalid.

/Edit. This is regarding Official polls only. Unofficial polls can do whatever the pollster wants, but they are not binding.

[Panag]

hi ,

Aggie , build an army with the GL , .....

have a nice day

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I don't necessarily want to keep this thread going, but...

I said 'should', not must. It is certainly possible that the court could invalidate a poll based on lack of discussion leading to flawed questions.

Those who wish to put up a poll are strongly recommended to first discuss the issue in another thread, and bounce around possible options for voting. If someone feels that a poll could have been better made as a 'grouping' poll, or a 'yes/no' poll, then it may be deemed invalid.

/Edit. This is regarding Official polls only. Unofficial polls can do whatever the pollster wants, but they are not binding.

But you are limited to those two options, not lack of discussion. You would have to rule it should be a group poll or a yes/no. Not that it needed more discussion.

[notyoueither]

I believe it is clear that if the polled options are lacking the poll can be ruled invalid. The way to avoid that happening is to allow for a proper discussion to take place. A proper discussion can take time as you may need to allow for enough citizens to drop by and make themselves heard.

[wervdon]

Heh, One of the things about this I found so funny was how a few of the people being pro-art of war argue it both ways.

"We can't save the leader cause we'll lose chances at more leaders" (keyword chance)

"We shouldn't go army because the epic just increases our chances at leaders." (keyword chance)



Also I personally would get Sistine's at all cost. It makes too big of a difference on emperor not to. I'd even be for premature peace with persia for theology, building the sistines, wiping out america during the 20 turn "cease fire" then resuming war with persia, if thats what it took to get theology now.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by wervdon
Also I personally would get Sistine's at all cost. It makes too big of a difference on emperor not to. I'd even be for premature peace with persia for theology, building the sistines, wiping out america during the 20 turn "cease fire" then resuming war with persia, if thats what it took to get theology now.

*sigh* I agree, wervdon, but I think events have passed us by.

[wervdon]

I see what you mean, I just now noticed that MrWhereItsAt said the Art of War was built during the current turn chat in the other thread And I agree with you when all I can say is *sigh*