Court of Apolytonia: Case 1, Official Thread

[Captain]

The Court is in its Question and Answer session. Any citizen (including judge, minister, official) may post a question relevant to the case.

Again:
[i]use enough detail to clarify the question, but please keep them brief and specific.[i]

Questions should be numbered to assist the plaintiff and respondent (and myself) in keeping track. Since Judge nye has questions 1-3, next will be question 4. Since we are numbering questions, you do not need to wait for a reply to a previous question to post another one. Togas and UnOrthodOx should respond to questions in numerical order so that they do not miss any. Of course, they may use their answers to question to further their cases and debate, but should first make sure they are answering the question.

You do not need to request permission to speak if you follow these instructions.

However, the Court acknowledges Kring as he has been very patient waiting for his turn. Kring, please post your question. Thank you for waiting.

The Court also thanks all participants and observers for their courteous and orderly involvement.

[Togas]

Originally posted by notyoueither
1. The Abstain Issue. Where is the status of Abstain explained in law or practice? Can any given voter define the meaning of his Abstain vote on a case by case basis and does that attempt at definition have any legal standing?

We have agreed not to debate the abstain issue in this argument but I would like to point out that since there is no prior court decisions on this issue and no law defining what abstain is to mean, that in this case and in all other cases where we face the question of how to define something that has not been defined? that we look to the common practice and custom on this site and in the world at large. We ask “what does this word or phrase ordinarily mean?”

When there is no legally authoritative definition, the voters must turn to common practice and/or custom. When there is no common practice and/or custom, the creator must define the term for the other voters.

Does the attempt at definition have any legal standing? No. But I think the term you meant to use is legal significance. Standing refers to the ability to be heard on an issue.
But as to significance, of course it does. It shows us the intent of the drafter of the new law should a question arise about its meaning. It shows us the intent of the voters who passed the law as well.

Originally posted by notyoueither
2. The Editing Issue. Article II: Amendments points to 'inclusion' of new material, but does not mention allowing editing. Do you feel it is wise to allow for the Constitution (or Code of Laws) to be edited? How will we keep track of versions?

Anything which is not specifically or implicitly prohibited is allowed.

It is always wise to fix mistakes, remove outdated/unused/mistaken language and redraft our laws. In contrast it would be foolhardy to keep an outdated and useless set of words and phrases because they hold some sort of historical significance to us. Let the historians track history and number versions if they choose, our job as lawyers and as ministers of the law is to communicate the intent of these laws in the clearest way possible to the people, so that the people will be able to know and understand the true meaning of the law.

Let not our nostalgia cloud our minds over this issue. The people should be able to read our code of laws and understand them. The people need to feel confident that the laws, as written, are the true law of the land and not the prior law or some antiquated version of it that is no longer in effect.

Originally posted by notyoueither
3. The Repoll Issue.
What effect do you think Any poll that's general purpose is the same or similar as another poll will be considered a repoll would have on Timeline's poll of July 20?

This issue is a red herring.

If this were a repoll, Timeline would just be trying to get people to vote again on a law that was previously passed. That would be pointless. But if The Court takes a careful look at what was written by Timeline when he posted this amendment to be voted on, specifically his purpose for going to all the trouble, it will become apparent that his purpose was to fix mistakes in our Code of Laws that were not addressed when the original amendment was voted on.

Timeline is, in essence, asking the voters to allow him to go in and edit the Code of Laws so that the current language clearly expresses the will of the voters when they passed the original integration amendment.

Originally posted by notyoueither
Which mistakes in Spiffor's poll and Trip's enactment of the original Minister of Economy Amendment were addressed by Timeline's poll?

First of all, Spiffor’s poll was a general proposal for how to change the Code of Laws. A vast majority of the people approved the idea. Trip then assumed it was an amendment, write it up in similar language, and posted it as amendment 1 to the Code of Laws.

Trip DID NOT include this part of Spiffor’s original document:

“The Minister of Economy loses a function of the Minister of Trade in the process : the ability to call for trade embargoes, which goes to the foreign advisor.”

Frankly, if someone wants to right now, he could say that Amendment 1 was invalidly added to our Code of Laws as it was never polled as an “Amendment” and as Trip did not fully and completely put the text of the proposal into the Code of Laws as the people requested in their vote. However …

This is not relevant because Timeline’s proposal fixes this mistake!

By enacting Timeline’s text we remove questions about the validity and text of Spiffor’s proposal and Trips piecemeal inclusion into our Code of Laws.

Timeline’s proposal ties up the loose ends, clarifies the law, and makes a change in the area of embargos that mirrors the changes Trip failed to include. He fixed the language of the F.A.M. to remove the outdated language as well.

But most importantly, this was voted by an overwhelming majority to be the new written statement of the law! It is wrong for The Court to now tell the people that the language they chose to be the new statement of the law is invalid because some misapplication of the repoll issue. This is not a repoll! The evidence and intent are crystal clear that Timeline is not trying to repoll the people on this issue!

The people can and should fix the laws whenever they feel it is appropriate. The Code of Laws gives them that power. This Court should not trample on this right!

Originally posted by notyoueither
/Edit. Last question. Who decides that any given mistake was in fact a mistake and whether it warrants the application or the over-riding the repoll provisions of the Constitution?

The voters decide and they decided in this amendment. 70% of them voted to change the text as Timeline proposed.

--Togas

[Aggie]

4) For Togas and Timeline
The COL explicitly says that all amendment votes must be in yes/no format. How can this poll be valid since it also contains an abstain option?

5) For unorthodox
Under most rules of order an abstain is considered a non vote. How is this case different?

6) For Both
Have either you or the court checked to see if we could obtain the identities of the abstains and perhaps ask them what their view was when they chose the abstain option/vote?

Respectfully submitted by Aggie

[Togas]

Originally posted by Aggie
4) For Togas and Timeline
The COL explicitly says that all amendment votes must be in yes/no format. How can this poll be valid since it also contains an abstain option?

The Code of Laws, Article III, Poll Format states that, "Each official poll MUST include either a ‘yes/no’ format, or a ‘group’ format."

It does not read "MUST include only yes/no", nor does it define what a "'yes/no' format" is. It is silent on if voters may chose to abstain.

Am I beating a dead horse? People, by including "abstain" you are NOT automatically invalidating an official poll. If that were the case then nearly every single one of the polls we have done to date is invalid. Is that what the law mandates when it says 'yes/no' format? Is that the intent of the law, that we invalidate all of our polls? Furthermore, the common use and practice of polls on this site is to include the "abstain" option. Society itself has mandated that this is both allowable, permissable, and valid.

The question you should be asking is "why would including an abstain option make this poll invalid?" Not the other way around.

Originally posted by Aggie
6) For Both
Have either you or the court checked to see if we could obtain the identities of the abstains and perhaps ask them what their view was when they chose the abstain option/vote?

From reviewing the posts on the thread it is clear that Godking and Skywalker abstain, as each posted messages stating that they abstained, and each stated clearly why he abstained:

Originally posted by Skywalker
Abstain. I'm not quite sure what this is about. I thought that these amendments had already passed. If you want to replace earlier things instead of being tacked on at the end, then make an amendment that says that you can do that.

Originally posted by Godking
abstain - as I havn't followed the rational behind all of this terrably close. I don't have any objections.

Interestingly enough, Skywalker posts that he is confused about how abstains are counted in the quote submitted by the defense, but not about what abstain means. The above quote shows that Skywalker knows what abstain means.

Godking also knows what abstain means. His later post reads:

Originally posted by Godking
OK - I abstained. Just switch my vote to yes and let this one pass. Then we can have the court relook into this.

If I remember Robert's Rules of Order correctly, an abstain is a method for a person to vote, without effecting the outcome either way. This is usually necessary when a plurality (a sertain minimum number of votes) is necessary for the proposal to be passed.

--Togas

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Aggie
4) For Togas and Timeline
The COL explicitly says that all amendment votes must be in yes/no format. How can this poll be valid since it also contains an abstain option?

The law does not REQUIRE that an abstain option is put in. It is my contention that since it WAS, it was intended to be counted.

5) For unorthodox
Under most rules of order an abstain is considered a non vote. How is this case different?

Under most rules of order, there is a set number of voters as well. In those instances, enough abstain, and the vote will not pass. In our little world, however, we have no way of telling how many active voters there are. It is for this reason that absain should be counted. Not as 'no', but as ABSTAIN. The poll in question did NOT obtain the required % of those who voted. Abstains are a no vote, but they should also be counted. If three judges in this case abstained for instance, no ruling could pass because it requires 3/5 to pass judgement. The same rule should apply to the poll in question.

6) For Both
Have either you or the court checked to see if we could obtain the identities of the abstains and perhaps ask them what their view was when they chose the abstain option/vote?

The two in question are as Togas states. There WAS confusion, however, on how and if abstains are counted, hence this case. If they were intended to be throw out, what was the use of placing the option in the poll? One can say to view results, but there is a little 'show results' button for that and it requires NO voting, so that argument has no basis.

[Captain]

Since there are no further questions at this time, we'll move to the next (optional) session of the case thread and open the thread to comments and opinions from anyone regarding the case. You must provide a rationale for your comments, including links and/or quotes of evidence that support your rationale. Comments such as "Togas is right" or "I agree with UnOrthOdOx" [i]without[i] any rationale and support are unwelcome. Don't simply repeat what has already been said without adding something new, whether new perspective, new evidence, or new arguments.

The case is still open to questions. Please remember to number your questions and other protocols.

Lastly, if you are offering an opinion, please separate your questions from your comments into different posts for clarity.

Thank you again for your co-operation.

[kring]

Thank you for recognizing me, Captain; also, thank you for the PM I have been fairly busy and hadn't noticed your post.

I would like to say I supported the poll in question, but I don't agree that it passed.

Response to questions 1 and 5. After having reviewed a fair number of abstain articles on the internet, exactly how it is tabulated depends on the group in question that used it or did not allow its use. It can be anywhere from a vote that doesn't count at all to a vote that does count.

I would hope the Court makes a blanket ruling about Abstains, whether in this decision or another one. Because, otherwise, people will be defining it in each poll differently, which has been suggested on this issue already.

Several of the points I had planned on making have been put out by UnOrthOdOx, so I won't repeat them now.

7. I would ask what is the point of having Abstain if it is not going to count as part of the %age total since people don't have to vote at all, and many don't anyways?

[Captain]

To all:

The case thread will close Friday, 9pm EST by unanimous decision of the Court. Anything posted after that time will not be guaranteed consideration.

Due to fairness, questions will only continue to be allowed until Thursday, 9 pm EST. This allows 24 hrs for Togas and UnOrthOdOx (or their appointed substitutes) to read and respond to the questions.

At present, there is one unanswered question (#7 posted by kring).

Thank you.

[Aggie]

I would like to address the court. First of all, this has been a very well done case and I compliment both sides and the court. However I have a more important purpose in entering this statement. In a democracy it is of the paramount importance that all votes be equal and all elections for similar items be equal. However when one election has one format and another election has another format the two are most certainly unequal.
The poll which is effectivly on trial had yes,no, and abstain as options. This meant that if a person did not whole heartedly support it, they could cast an abstain vote instead of a no. Did this happen in this case? The best I can tell is no, however that doesn't preclude it happening in the future and effecting an outcome. Another election on an amendment was the election for the election standards. This amendment didn't have abstains, it simply had yes and no and it was defeated
by a 24-20 margin. Now would it have passed with the abstains option included. Probably not, but there are many people who posted saying they didn't like the amendment in a single sentence or in a small way. There is a good chance the margin would have been closer, this could have lead to a different result. Thus this amendment was handicapped by not having an abstain option. It is possible that if the amendment under consideration had had no abstains that it would have gone down to defeat in an absolute way. even if it is not the case in this instance the fact that abstains have the potential to increase the odds of passing should be considered in making any decision. Because ALL elections must be equal and elections with different formats can lead to different results I call upon the Apolyton court to rule that this and all future amendment polls that use abstain to be invalid and a violation of the constitution. The court could also use its authority to clarify the statement in the col that says
"Each official poll MUST include either a ‘yes/no’ format, or a ‘group’ format", to say that yes/no format means just that, a yes or no option without an abstain. However if the court doesn't agree with me on the excluding abstains I call upon the court to declare that all amendment elections must have abstain as an option. Either way will do so long as all elections are now and forever truly equal. Though clearly I feel that the abstain option simply gives to much confusion potential to a vote.
Aggie

[UnOrthOdOx]

Aggie,

I do not know if the court can really ask that all polls require an abstain. That is something I believe must happen through an ammendment. There was some discussion a while back, when this case opened, because I saw the same things you did. Please make your opinion known in this thread on the issue of requiring abstains in votes.

[Captain]

Gentle reminder of question #7, if anyone wants to reply? If you have already answered, you can just point to the answer.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I consider that question to be for the Plaintiff. I asked a similar one in one of my arguments.

[Treestumpx]

Point one: The poll in question was two option poll. Yes or no. There is no maybe option. No option to send the amendment back for revision, etc. The abstain option in the poll adds a third choice to the ballet where only two should exist. Since it is a yes or no poll, results should only be based on those two choices and those two choices alone. The third option is rendered powerless by the dicotomus choice of the preceeding two. Results of the poll should reflect this.

Point two: Though it was mentioned that we should not dispute the definition of an abstain vote, it is certainly apparent that it should not even exist. By casting a vote to abstain, it is possible to view the results of the poll before the vote is closed. This way, it is possible for either side attempting to sway the decision to seek additional votes and additional means to vote and procure a win.

The option to abstain should have never existed since it is already possible to abstain by refusing to vote. Every citizen does this by not voting.

[Togas]

I would like to apologize to Kring because I missed his question. I will answer it now.

Originally posted by kring
7. I would ask what is the point of having Abstain if it is not going to count as part of the %age total since people don't have to vote at all, and many don't anyways?

I would like to ask what PART of the % total do you want it to count as? Should it count as part of the "no" percentage? Should it count as part of the "yes" percentage?

Those are the only two options if it's going to COUNT for anything, because saying it counts as some mysterious third option is actually saying it's a vote against passage, and that's a vote for "no."

There is one other option, though. That we COUNT abstains as abstains are meant to be counted: we don't count them.

If someone wanted to vote "no", he would have voted no.
If someone wanted to vote "yes", he would have voted yes.
The two who voted "abstain" meant it as abstain. Just look at their posts. That was the intention of their vote and The Court should not apply some alternate meaning to their votes.

Originally posted by kring
I would hope the Court makes a blanket ruling about Abstains, whether in this decision or another one. Because, otherwise, people will be defining it in each poll differently, which has been suggested on this issue already.

I would hope that The Court NOT make laws. Making laws is the job of the people, not The Court. Given the current state of the law and given the current state of our custom and practice involving abstains, The Court should find this poll valid, find that the ammendment passed, and let the people fix this perceived ambiguity in the law through the proper, legal channels.

Thank you,

--Togas

[Captain]

Case thread is closed. Judges will spend several days deliberating and deliver a ruling sometime next week. Thank you to all participants, you have certainly given us a lot to think about.